Bought a Makino A-88, opinions please.

Hello everyone. I trust every one's opinion here and that's why I am posting this. I just bought a Makino A-88, year 2000. It's got about 15k spindle hours on it and about .0015 spindle runout. That spindle runout really scares me. I am hoping that it's just a regrind issue and nothing like spindle bearings, I have yet to hear the spindle run. (the short video skipped that part! I thought I had heard it but go it confused with another video) Its got some other little issues, but nothing as major as spindle runout.

I bought it off a local auction website. The machine is located about 2 hours from me and I never expected to be able to pick it up at the price I did, if I had thought there was even a chance of to purchase it I would have looked further into it. When I won the Auction I thought I was going to faint. I thought that they where going to go for around 80k-100k.

The machine looks pretty clean, 24" pallet, 35" travel X, 12k rpm with a Cat 50, 128 tools, (missing 28 pots) 1200psi tsc, and nice fast rapids, and a true 4th axis. And I hate to post it but it is important to the conversation, I paid 52k plus 15%, and moving it is going to be fun. Let's just say I doubt that my 9 other mills are worth more then what the grand total of this will be. Me and my tech are going to tear it down and set it up, so we get to know her.

I am scared to death because I have never bought something this expensive. I do have some horizontal work come thru the door, but it comes and goes. I also have never ran a Makino. I know they are high end machines, and good machines. I hope I did good. I guess being the boss makes me the guy that has to pull the trigger on stuff like this, but dang, this seemed to age me.

I don't really have much money to fix her up once she's here. I do have plenty of 50 taper tooling and a huge set of Tombstones that I bought a while back hoping it would fit my much smaller machine, and they didn't. So they will finally be put to use. Looks like my Leadwell Horizontal is about to go out the door, firesale cheap.

Only thing that I think I am going to do is pull a Renishaw probe off one of my other machines and put it on here, and maybe install a 4th axis indexer for 5 axis positioning.

Anybody know Makinos that wants to chime in? Did I pay too much? What would this machine cost new? (I guess 500k?) Any opinions really, because no one around my shop has any.

Thanks, from a nervous Matt.

Hey Matt,

Makinos are top-shelf machines, for sure. A big horizontal like that would easily push $500k new. I would say you did pretty dang good.

Once you get her powered up, the sound of the spindle will tell you whether you need new bearings or not. Hopefully, you can hire a spindle grinder (there's one who posts here on PM), to come in and regrind your taper, and you will be set.

Good luck with the new toy!

Greg

i ran a '95 makino mc98 with the pallet pool changer for 3 years every day...loved the operating system, so close to a fanuc that most button pusher "operators" would never know the difference

if the quality of your machine is anything like the one i ran it is top shelf and BUILT TO RUN ...i saw a trainee turn a 14" long spotface tool into a 4" long mushroom shaped glob at full rapid (broke the holder like a piece of glass and snapped the retention stud inside the spindle)....indicated in the pallet and saw .0002" of movement across 40" of travel in every direction there was to check....spindle runout was fixed with a regrind the next day and back to work we went...i think you would be hard pressed to find a more durable machine!

You stole that machine.....if it's in any shape at all.

15k hrs = 7.x years of 2080 hr / year work (40 hr week). Since it's 9 years old, that tells me that it has not had the piss ran out of it, at least as far as to being an ex-production machine.
I'd say you will be _really_ pleased with this machine.

Take a chill pill, calm down, and start planning strategy to load this thing up with work. It'll take all you can give it...

Thanks.

I did take a chill pill. Only works so well. My Dad is at Barret Jackson right now, went there looking at a 39 Ford. (looking for a cheap one) He's skipping on the car now, I feel bad about that. He ain't mad at all. He's just holding his wallet a little tighter. It's a family business and he still has the real power. We talked before I made the offer.

As for the hours, machine power has 44k, spindle is 15k. Spindle is what I try to look at. I imagine the spindle is really what is important. Looked like 40k op hours. But it does seem ok.

Yup, need to chill out, go get dinner. I am excited about the machine. When she shows up I'll post pictures. Getting that beast into our shop is going to be interesting. I am going to take a lot of pictures of the break down of the machine and the move, I want to remember this one.

Outstanding buy! That machine was likely around the 500K mark when new. Designed to run 24/7 for years on end.

You will never want to put another job on any of your machines again.

Mattedroom said:

Hello everyone.
The machine looks pretty clean, 24" pallet, 35" travel X, 12k rpm with a Cat 50, 128 tools, (missing 28 pots) 1200psi tsc, and nice fast rapids, and a true 4th axis.

Click to expand...

I must be wrong but I was thinking all the A88s were 800mm pallets standard. Maybe this was ordered with the 630mm.

My employer has been buying Makino's for about 6 or 7 years now and they have worked out well in the aircraft end of the buiseness we work in. We've got a pair of A55s, 6 or so A51s, and about 15 A61s. We can't complain about the machines. I wish the 55s and 51s had a bigger part envelope, but you won't have that problem.

We have a non-aircraft plant that does larger work that has some A71s or A77s and some A81s or A88s but I have never been there to see them (differnt state). I have talked to people from the plant and they were happy with them though.

I know you don't want to hear this but even if you need to replace spindle bearings you got a steal on this machine. Follow up with some pic.s when you get it home.

You gotta a good price even if you have to replace/rebuild the spindle. Now then, if that is necessary....be prepared for some sticker shock on the price of a new one. Makino spindles are mucho $$$.

Well... Makino spindles aren't 'mucho' dollars in relative terms to other "high end" machines. If you want to compare it to a Haas or Daewoo or something than sure, it's 'expensive'.... nice thing is the spindle assembly ran in 4 different "A" models so there are plenty of them around. I will say though, ... if you're not used to the costs of large envelope high end machines..... JMC is dead on... Sticker Shock.

A88s are 630mm machines. A99 is 800mm and then the A100 at 1000mm. Sounds like you got a pretty good buy and just all about how everything else is as well. Makino 50 tapers are tough spindles (their 40 tapers are pretty tough too.). I've programmed all of them from A55 to the A100 at one point or another and Makino made a great machine with these series and I still have A55 machines from the first version to the A55e here.

If you know there's .0015 runout in the spindle, it means you at least turned it by hand did you not? Or is that info that was given to you? Anyway, you can get a guy like Walt (who posts on here and I believe one other grinder) or similar to check it out and grind the spindle in the machine if it needs it. If anything else is toast, he'll tell you.

As for other costs: Those tool pots aren't cheap but better get them. Sucks being "short" on the magazine. Take a good look at the Hydraulic tank assembly and spindle chiller unit. I've had chiller units rot out and those components can add up. Check out the pop up unit for the Tool Eye (tool setter in the machine) if it has it. Setting the machine up for a probe is a piece of cake. FANUC based Pro 3 control so that stuff is usually bullet proof.

As psycho stated, high end spindles aren't cheap, no matter who makes em. Our boring spindles are $55k for a rebuild, $82k new ...... _just the spindle cartridge_ to your door. You don't want to change many of those....
That puts a Mazak integral spindle at $13k in the "relatively cheap spindle" category.

Its not THAT big a job to rebuild a hmc spindle yourself..... just gotta use toolmakers practise in assembly and pay attention to how it comes apart. I have built many integral motor toyoda spindles, and a few cincinnati VMC spindles. Its basically make sure everything is as clean as you can get it, burr free, and assembled with the thrust faces going the right way. Check all the oil lines and do the break inprocedure, checking temp often, if there is a problem she'll be more than warm to the touch. when it starts becoming not noticeably cold thats time to really pay attention as something may not be right, either in the chiller or the bearings. Make sure ya get all the books, and as much about control troubleshooting as possible. I prefer ladder based controls, but pro3 has a following...sounds like a nice machine.

If the spindle is shot and costs 85k to replace I will have to part with the machine, at a loss if I have too. I simply don't have 85k. I imagined more like 15k.

After I look at the machine I will decide whether I need to contact Walt. There are a couple machines around my shop that I wouldn't mind having ground in.

The machine has a service report written up on it. That's how I know about the runout. Some tech spent about 5 hours looking at everything on the machine. He stated the runout at fixed end is .0015. Also mentioned the missing pots, some buttons, some holes in the center chip conveyor, missing a pallet safety pin. Stuff like that. Ya, the pots will get annoying.

He also stated that everything else sounded fine and that the spindle and axis had no strange sounds. Once again thou, I have yet to see the machine. I also have yet to receive the bill, which is strange, because usually they want the money right now.

This is just an adventure into highend machines for the first time. Sure she is used, but so is every other machine I have ever had. Except they are Leadwells, and my one Kitamura that I love.

Honestly, I am starting to get excited about it. I just want to get the old one out, newer one in and start cutting asap to try to make back some money.

Thanks!

Is it possible that the tech meant .00015 runout?

First thing I'd do is chuck up a test bar and check it myself. I don't know what tolerances you work to... but sometimes .0015 is close enough...if tolerances allow make some money with it before you fix it if it sounds and runs ok. He might also be checking in MM.

chip_maker said:

Is it possible that the tech meant .00015 runout?

Click to expand...

Excellent question!

Stan-

WILLEO6709 said:

First thing I'd do is chuck up a test bar and check it myself. I don't know what tolerances you work to... but sometimes .0015 is close enough...if tolerances allow make some money with it before you fix it if it sounds and runs ok. He might also be checking in MM.

Click to expand...

Willie, this is exactly what I'm thinking. 1.5 microns of runout, not 1.5 thou.

Mattedroom,
I *seriously* doubt that spindle is $85k. More likely in the $10-15k range, maybe less with exchange. Our Mazak integral spindles are about $7k exchange I think. $13k was for new.

This $85k spindle is a special hydrodynamic integral spindle with nanometer guaranteed runout and vibration.
The bore it makes has a roundness tolerance of 2.5 microns.

Mattedroom said:

He stated the runout at fixed end is .0015.

Click to expand...

Another thought I had is maybe the taper is a little beat up and perhaps the . 0015 is an out of roundness condition and not runout. If the spindle sounded good something isn't making sense here, I could be wrong though, anyone ever here a "good sounding" spindle with .0015 runout?

Tonytn36 said:

Willie, this is exactly what I'm thinking. 1.5 microns of runout, not 1.5 thou.

Mattedroom,
I *seriously* doubt that spindle is $85k. More likely in the $10-15k range, maybe less with exchange. Our Mazak integral spindles are about $7k exchange I think. $13k was for new.

This $85k spindle is a special hydrodynamic integral spindle with nanometer guaranteed runout and vibration.
The bore it makes has a roundness tolerance of 2.5 microns.

Click to expand...

I remember a Makino sales guy telling me awhile back that the A88e 18,000rpm HSK100 spindle option was right around $80,000. Doesn't sound like like Mattedroom has that one though.

It depends on the length you check it at. Cinci VMC spindles will have no less than 0.0030 inches tir at 10" from gauge line,,, I have seen hmc's running with 0.003-0.005 tir at 10 inches and not affecting the parts, but we are not talking micron tolerances either. If you change the spindle or even rebuild it in place, make sure you double check absolute home if its absolute encoders. Sometimes she can move a few thou, especially Z.

to set home on absolute coders in a HMC - test bar in spindle, empty pallet face
1. sweep pallet left to right front to back, and 0-360 degrees to verify pallet integity
2. mag base on pallet, sweep indicator up over the bar with y axis, center bar using x axis and zero indicator. this is x home, reset it here.
3. turn pallet 90, touch off bar to indicator to zero set on x, back up z amount equaling half test bar + machine manual distance from pallet center to z home. reset z home here.
4. touch off test bar on pallet face using gage blocks. move y axis up according to machine manual distance from pallet top face to y home. Allow for gage block stack. set y home here.

I don't know if A88's have home dogs...personally I don't trust them as much as I sed to, I prefer my absolute encoder machines.

While I don't have a master gage, I imagine that some of my machines might have that much. It would not surprise me. As for the .0015 being, .00015, nope. I wish.

I have been stupid. You wanna see it?

http://www.apexauctions.com/auction/lotForAuction.htm?auctionId=368&lotId=32934

The condition report is number 3. (PDF file near the bottom) That says it all. It's hard to read. I was after Lot 4, but right after it got away, I bid on lot 3 and won quickly, too quickly to really re-review everything.


My bad, I wasn't thinking correctly.