How long does a Mazak Horizontal last before it needs a major overhaul?

Parkerbender · Jun 20, 2013

I am looking at a 2002 Mazak horizontal, which doesn't look terrible, has a couple little things wrong with it, but according to the current owner "I don't know how many times the hour meter rolled over, it runs three shifts, 5 days a week, for the last 6 years?" I am used to commodity machines where that would have meant 1 or maybe 2 spindles, and the rest of the machine would be getting a little sad... Is a Mazak different, or might it be needing a spindle, ways redone, servos tuned, etc? Not our biggest purchase ever, but it is currently the scariest one...

Secondly, we are a shop that usually does 100 parts in a run, but we have a couple 1000+ parts coming up, and I see us going more that way... is a horizontal stupid, or do people actually make shorter-run parts on them too?

Thanks!
-Parker

Limy Sami · Jun 20, 2013

Your "I don't know how many times the hour meter rolled over, it runs three shifts, 5 days a week, for the last 6 years?" equates to something like 36,000 hrs, which sounds a lot to me, though a lot will depend on what sort of work and material it's been on.

I know in no way is it comparible, but for a car, 36,000 hrs @ say 30mph = 1,080,000 miles! or 180,000 miles a year - a little more than ''well used''

Terry Z · Jun 20, 2013

Run the spindle as fast as you can then kill the power. Listen to the spindle slowing down untill it stops. If there is a bearing issue you should be able to hear something not right thru the speeds winding down. As for the axis guides these can be replaced if need be. Do a lash test in all axis and see how well they repeat. Has it been crashed? Have the filters and fluids been changed when needed on time?

chip_maker · Jun 20, 2013

Terry Z said:
Do a lash test in all axis and see how well they repeat.

In addition to this get into the parameters and check the backlash comps. Also see if you can review the maintenance records.

Mickey_D · Jun 20, 2013

What I have heard from the sales guys is that the major brand horizontals are meant to be run 24x7 for a nice trouble free ten or so years and then be replaced because they are done then. By that time they are fully depreciated and have made a gazillion parts and a new machine will be faster, more accurate, and able to make more money per part. Sounds like that one has used up a significant part of it's service life already (and the seller knows it), I don't think that I would touch it. It would be easy to spend a 100K plus for the machine and then another big gob of cash and time getting it up and running right and still have a ten year old and rapidly aging machine (think parts availability). From talking to other shops with old Mazaks around here, I don't get the warm and fuzzies about parts and quick service for older machines. With the Yen being down, have you priced a new machine? I know that Kitamura is pushing field expandability options for theirs pretty hard now and I suspect that the rest will follow. Might be able to start out with a decent 250K base machine and then expand the tool capacity and pallet system as growth warrants.

Parkerbender · Jun 20, 2013

It's signiffffficantly cheaper than that 100K mark, and Mazak's parts availability is almost forever... That said, I don't/cant afford to go through the whole machine the day, week, or even year the machine hits the floor, so maybe it's the right idea to steer clear... :-/ We're a two-guy shop that just bought a 7-axis lathe with live tooling, y, and a sub last year... if I tried to take another 250K out, the bank would just laugh at me I'm afraid... This machine just kindof appeared, was cheaaaaaap, and has tsc, and a 12k spindle, which both would be really nice for the craptons of aluminum we move...

Joe788 · Jun 20, 2013

Is the machine still under power, making parts? If it's making good parts, you have your answer as to the current condition of the machine. To check the real hours, go to DIAGNOS>VERSION>SPINDLE MONITOR and then page down one page, and you'll see a timer labeled "work time".

If it's an FH4800 or 5800, it'll make parts just as fast as any new machine. The Fusion control is still sold on new machines today, so it's not like it's some dinosaur or anything. I've been browsing for a nice FH4800 at the right price too, so if you don't buy it, PM me a link.

Brian · Jun 20, 2013

In regards to what Mickey said, 24/7 for 10 years, if the machine is only 6 years into that, in your case, a 2 man shop, probably running single shift I assume? That's 4 years times three shifts, so 12 years at your usage level. If you haven't paid it off and made a ton of profit off of it then you are doing something wrong.

I would also be more afraid of a machine that hasn't been run 3 shifts, five days a week for 6 years... at least that means this has been one reliable sucker for the company. I would be more worried about the "looks perfect, has very low hours... yada, yada" machine than one that has obviously been running parts and making money. I would be careful and inspect the spindle and other things mentioned above, and set aside enough money to repair/rebuild anything that does break.... but a brand new machine is no guarantee of a trouble free machine. I went the route of brand new on a machine back in the early 90's that almost put me out of business because in the first year we spent about 9 months of it replacing spindles, tool holders and everything else under the sun because the tool changes would hang up and fault out the machine.

Brian · Jun 20, 2013

In regards to what Mickey said, 24/7 for 10 years, if the machine is only 6 years into that, in your case, a 2 man shop, probably running single shift I assume? That's 4 years times three shifts, so 12 years at your usage level. If you haven't paid it off and made a ton of profit off of it then you are doing something wrong.

I would also be more afraid of a machine that hasn't been run 3 shifts, five days a week for 6 years... at least that means this has been one reliable sucker for the company. I would be more worried about the "looks perfect, has very low hours... yada, yada" machine than one that has obviously been running parts and making money. I would be careful and inspect the spindle and other things mentioned above, and set aside enough money to repair/rebuild anything that does break.... but a brand new machine is no guarantee of a trouble free machine. I went the route of brand new on a machine back in the early 90's that almost put me out of business because in the first year we spent about 9 months of it replacing spindles, tool holders and everything else under the sun because the tool changes would hang up and fault out the machine.

HuFlungDung · Jun 20, 2013

Wouldn't it be reasonable to have a Mazak tech come in and look it over? He probably knows the weakest points to check.

A machine that is paid for and still making parts is a real money maker. You don't make any money with a new machine until it earns it's own purchase price.

10 year old cnc technology is not really that ancient anymore, not like the first couple of decades of cnc that evolved rapidly. If you've got brushless servos and a good lube system going for you, that's a big plus.

At least let it die on the job, don't just kill it one day

adama · Jun 20, 2013

Why are they selling it? If its still running well, why are they changing it? The answer to that question alone is normally a make or break on any second hand gear purchase IMHO.

Parkerbender · Jun 20, 2013

"have a new machine coming to take it's place, need to make room" It's not making parts at the moment, the toolchanger fingers are shot I guess... I bought a brand new machine last year also, which is why I am looking at a used one, after my experience with new machines, not sure why anybody puts themselves through that... I guess the major question, spindles are worth like $5k, right? I have no idea what ways are worth if they are smoked, the ballscrews I have no idea either but I would assume they last longer than ways (it's an FH-4000 by the way, not sure if they had cooled ballscrews by then or not) but if a guy can basically go through it for 10-15, then whatever happens happens. I am more than qualified to parts-change, if I needed a tech it would only be a day to calibrate after I threw things back together... Still never got an answer if people job-shop with horizontals or if they are mostly all high-production... But I think it's maybe a go anyway.

Just waiting for the loan app to go through, I think! ...unless the dude looking at it on Monday takes it. :-S

-Parker

dstryr · Jun 20, 2013

Parkerbender said:
"have a new machine coming to take it's place, need to make room" It's not making parts at the moment, the toolchanger fingers are shot I guess... I bought a brand new machine last year also, which is why I am looking at a used one, after my experience with new machines, not sure why anybody puts themselves through that... I guess the major question, spindles are worth like $5k, right? I have no idea what ways are worth if they are smoked, the ballscrews I have no idea either but I would assume they last longer than ways (it's an FH-4000 by the way, not sure if they had cooled ballscrews by then or not) but if a guy can basically go through it for 10-15, then whatever happens happens. I am more than qualified to parts-change, if I needed a tech it would only be a day to calibrate after I threw things back together... Still never got an answer if people job-shop with horizontals or if they are mostly all high-production... But I think it's maybe a go anyway.

Just waiting for the loan app to go through, I think! ...unless the dude looking at it on Monday takes it. :-S

-Parker

Horizontals are the ultimate job shop machine if you have good fixturing / tooling and a decent sized tool library loaded. More offline programming but setup times are very quick. Swap fixtures add a new program and boom off to the races

You might want to look at prices though. I was told the spindle for my Mori NH5000 is around 30-40k

Garwood · Jun 20, 2013

I never thought about it before, but my old Mori vertical ran production in stainless and alloy steel for 104,000 hours before I got it. 2 shifts 260 days a year 25 years.

Joe788 · Jun 20, 2013

Parkerbender said:
"have a new machine coming to take it's place, need to make room" It's not making parts at the moment, the toolchanger fingers are shot I guess... I bought a brand new machine last year also, which is why I am looking at a used one, after my experience with new machines, not sure why anybody puts themselves through that... I guess the major question, spindles are worth like $5k, right? I have no idea what ways are worth if they are smoked, the ballscrews I have no idea either but I would assume they last longer than ways (it's an FH-4000 by the way, not sure if they had cooled ballscrews by then or not) but if a guy can basically go through it for 10-15, then whatever happens happens. I am more than qualified to parts-change, if I needed a tech it would only be a day to calibrate after I threw things back together... Still never got an answer if people job-shop with horizontals or if they are mostly all high-production... But I think it's maybe a go anyway.

Just waiting for the loan app to go through, I think! ...unless the dude looking at it on Monday takes it. :-S

-Parker

That spindle could be pricey. If it's trashed, having Mazak replace it could be $20K. If it just needs bearings, I'm sure you could get an independent place to do it for a small fraction of that. If it sounds nice and it's making parts with a good finish, it's good to go.

Also, make sure the ATC finger thing gets sorted out on their dime and time. The ATC on those machines is different from what you're used to seeing, and they can definitely huck some tools around. Check out the end of this video:

Mazak - YouTube

We don't really do "job shop" work, but we do lots of shorter run repeat jobs. Stuff that only runs for a day or two every other month or so. Like dstryr said, it's all about fixturing.

Joe788 · Jun 20, 2013

dstryr said:
I was told the spindle for my Mori NH5000 is around 30-40k

Ouch! When I was shopping for the original NH5000 about a decade ago, they really played up the "cartridge spindle" that could be replaced in 30 minutes and only cost $4-5K. I was looking at an A66e at the same time, and the Mori salesman assured me the Makino spindle was $40K. LOL Who knows how much truth was in either of those statements.

Parkerbender · Jun 20, 2013

I think I am screwed on the toolchanger, as they are asking very little money for the thing, I think that's built into the price... That sucks about the spindle thing, I think I would be driving out there to pick it up, maybe I'd ask to go out the day before, look at it, and if it's neato burrito mosquito I'd take it home the next day, and give them a day to jerk the power and air. Then I can do the 'cut power and listen to it wind down' trick. ;-)

Dave Cross · Jun 20, 2013

Parkerbender said:
"have a new machine coming to take it's place, need to make room" It's not making parts at the moment, the toolchanger fingers are shot I guess... I bought a brand new machine last year also, which is why I am looking at a used one, after my experience with new machines, not sure why anybody puts themselves through that... I guess the major question, spindles are worth like $5k, right? I have no idea what ways are worth if they are smoked, the ballscrews I have no idea either but I would assume they last longer than ways (it's an FH-4000 by the way, not sure if they had cooled ballscrews by then or not) but if a guy can basically go through it for 10-15, then whatever happens happens. I am more than qualified to parts-change, if I needed a tech it would only be a day to calibrate after I threw things back together... Still never got an answer if people job-shop with horizontals or if they are mostly all high-production... But I think it's maybe a go anyway.

Just waiting for the loan app to go through, I think! ...unless the dude looking at it on Monday takes it. :-S

-Parker

Lol that spindle will be real money, 5k isn't going to buy you much of a spindle. I haven't had good luck with rebuilt spindles but that is not to say its not possible.

FWIW for my spindles in my Mazak sqt10ms, 15hp? main and 10ish hp sub, intergral motor, air cooled, a pair of angular contacts on each end in either spindle (this is all speak for nothing special) 33k for the main and 18.5k for the sub... Mazak ballscrew prices are crazy as well. Sourcing new screws isn't too hard, the linear guides will likely be a little more trouble as the trucks usually have Mazak custom mounting configs but you can redrill off the shelf ones to suite.

BTW, if you aren't already familiar with setting grid shifts, aligning/squaring trucks and ways, tensioning ballscrews etc I'd just have a tech come out and work along side him and learn how to do it right off the bat, otherwise you will just need to redo it all again in a hurry and you will have wasted the $$$ you spent on parts.

One nice thing about Mazaks is that they are very easy to rebuild. Buying factory parts will kill you though, they are more expensive then most of the high end brands. Tech support is usually mediocre, service in most areas is as good as having aids. Parts are hit and miss, they have some stuff in stock, and some stuff 8weeks+ out.

I'm not familiar with 7 axis lathe with Y and a sub... How does that work? I would think you have C(main spindle, XYZ(turret 1) and then just XZ(turret 2) with another C on the sub? It just seems usually they throw the Y on turret 2 as well so you have 8 axis.

Joe, I know a guy with a nh5000, I am pretty sure its a 20k spindle, they are over $20k. I got a price on a spindle for a Makino A55 or A51, can't remember which now, 14k was $24k, If it was 20-30k rpm I could believe $40k installed.

dstryr · Jun 20, 2013

Joe788 said:
Ouch! When I was shopping for the original NH5000 about a decade ago, they really played up the "cartridge spindle" that could be replaced in 30 minutes and only cost $4-5K. I was looking at an A66e at the same time, and the Mori salesman assured me the Makino spindle was $40K. LOL Who knows how much truth was in either of those statements.

This is very true...the cost I was estimated didnt come from Mori...I should ask just out of curiosity.

Parkerbender said:
I think I am screwed on the toolchanger, as they are asking very little money for the thing, I think that's built into the price... That sucks about the spindle thing, I think I would be driving out there to pick it up, maybe I'd ask to go out the day before, look at it, and if it's neato burrito mosquito I'd take it home the next day, and give them a day to jerk the power and air. Then I can do the 'cut power and listen to it wind down' trick. ;-)

How are you going to pick it up? You have your own semi?

dstryr · Jun 20, 2013

Dave Cross said:
Lol that spindle will be real money, 5k isn't going to buy you much of a spindle. I haven't had good luck with rebuilt spindles but that is not to say its not possible.

FWIW for my spindles in my Mazak sqt10ms, 15hp? main and 10ish hp sub, intergral motor, air cooled, a pair of angular contacts on each end in either spindle (this is all speak for nothing special) 33k for the main and 18.5k for the sub... Mazak ballscrew prices are crazy as well. Sourcing new screws isn't too hard, the linear guides will likely be a little more trouble as the trucks usually have Mazak custom mounting configs but you can redrill off the shelf ones to suite.

BTW, if you aren't already familiar with setting grid shifts, aligning/squaring trucks and ways, tensioning ballscrews etc I'd just have a tech come out and work along side him and learn how to do it right off the bat, otherwise you will just need to redo it all again in a hurry and you will have wasted the $$$ you spent on parts.

One nice thing about Mazaks is that they are very easy to rebuild. Buying factory parts will kill you though, they are more expensive then most of the high end brands. Tech support is usually mediocre, service in most areas is as good as having aids. Parts are hit and miss, they have some stuff in stock, and some stuff 8weeks+ out.

I'm not familiar with 7 axis lathe with Y and a sub... How does that work? I would think you have C(main spindle, XYZ(turret 1) and then just XZ(turret 2) with another C on the sub? It just seems usually they throw the Y on turret 2 as well so you have 8 axis.

Joe, I know a guy with a nh5000, I am pretty sure its a 20k spindle, they are over $20k. I got a price on a spindle for a Makino A55 or A51, can't remember which now, 14k was $24k, If it was 20-30k rpm I could believe $40k installed.

Hmm. I have the nh5000 with the 14k spindle. Should be less than $20k then. I need to get a spindle probe in there sooner rather than later. I just started realizing how awesome horizontals are for setup reduction. Finally got a decent array of fixture plates, risers, dovetail clamps, etc. Waiting on the ellison rep to quote me on a 6CPP

How long does a Mazak Horizontal last before it needs a major overhaul?

Stainless

Diamond

Cast Iron

Stainless

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

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