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first experience with high feed milling questions

chineshop_guy

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
central kentucky, usa
recently we got a sandvik 419, 2 inch high feed mill. getting ready to try this thing out. i have 2 parts made out of 1045, that right now weigh 250 to 300#. will end up like 40#.
ran their calculator online, it gives me 975 sfm (2190 rpm), .031 fpt (275 ipm), 1.1 step over and .075 doc.
holy crap is that right???:skep: i know these things move, all i've seen are videos, and the little bit i've been able to dig up here.
and then another question, i have an area on this part that is 4.13 deep with a 90 degree shoulder. so with this type tool and say face mill arbor with 3 inch gage length be doable???
 
Yes, it works. The insert geometry is designed to put more of the cutting load into the Z axis which is why the axial depth is kept low. Feed rates are very high due to the utilization of chip thinning. Start it at 60% feed override and dial it up as you get more comfortable.
 
ok, so then what about using the extended holder, seems like thats going to effect the rigidity.

That is the beauty of the high feed milling cutters, the pressure is axial, not radial. You can stick them out a mile and they still run great!

Just pointing out the obvious here, if you exceed the recommended axial cut you are no longer chip thinning and the cutter will explode.
 
I took a solid carbide endmill up over 900ipm so I know how you feel. You will be addicted to the sound this will make but take my advice and don't get hit by one of the chips...
 
I did it for the first time ever in my life at my current job about 3 months ago and boy did my ass pucker. I ran it .010" down so that way the part was not scrap. Once I saw everything was kosher ran the whole program. Took a part program that I was running with a .5" endmill and taking two days to machine... Reduced it to about 90 mins. Now I use the high feed cutter whenever and wherever possible. Once you get comfortable its kick ass. Even the people from our front office were walking out and saying it sounds like a DGD airplane is taking off in the building.. It sounds horrible and I told them that is the sounds of sweet sweet success. Once they saw what the machine was doing they were standing around with jaws on the floor watching it rip shnort.
 
mrr

recently we got a sandvik 419, 2 inch high feed mill. getting ready to try this thing out. i have 2 parts made out of 1045, that right now weigh 250 to 300#. will end up like 40#.
ran their calculator online, it gives me 975 sfm (2190 rpm), .031 fpt (275 ipm), 1.1 step over and .075 doc.
holy crap is that right???:skep: i know these things move, all i've seen are videos, and the little bit i've been able to dig up here.
and then another question, i have an area on this part that is 4.13 deep with a 90 degree shoulder. so with this type tool and say face mill arbor with 3 inch gage length be doable???
.
275x1.1x.075= 22.69 cubic inches per minute......... silly question how much horsepower does your machine have ??
.
i am guessing you will need 20 to 30 hp
 
recently we got a sandvik 419, 2 inch high feed mill. getting ready to try this thing out. i have 2 parts made out of 1045, that right now weigh 250 to 300#. will end up like 40#.
ran their calculator online, it gives me 975 sfm (2190 rpm), .031 fpt (275 ipm), 1.1 step over and .075 doc.
holy crap is that right???:skep: i know these things move, all i've seen are videos, and the little bit i've been able to dig up here.
and then another question, i have an area on this part that is 4.13 deep with a 90 degree shoulder. so with this type tool and say face mill arbor with 3 inch gage length be doable???

Just curious, but where in Central Kentucky are you?

The only thing I would recommend, is cut the depth of cut in half, or at least 2/3 for your first run. .07" on a high-feed mill is pretty deep. You want to find out how your machine likes this type of cutting before you try to go for maximum performance.

Using high-feed mills in long-length holders is no problem. Like others have mentioned, the cutting pressure is turned almost completely axial, (in the Z direction,) so even long cutters are still plenty rigid during the cut.

The only thing you need to be aware of is when cutting interior pockets with 90* walls, and here's why... Most of these cutters have a 10* lead-angle, so when they cut, the leave a 10* corner behind. When you approach side-wall on your next Z-pass, you will have to cut the D.O.C. of your current pass, + the 10* corner left behind from the 1st pass. Assuming there is no draft in your part, and you have repeated Z-passes cutting against the same shoulder, the cutter will be taking the full D.O.C. as it is cutting away the 10* corner from the previous depth pass.

What you will notice is, that if the last pass against a shoulder is at the same radial step-over, you will now be cutting the step-over width, + the 10* corner, and will notice a big spike in spindle load and cutting pressure. I've attached a drawing to help show the point - Hopefully I'm making sense...

To avoid this, I'd try to manipulate my toolpaths, so that I stay away from finishing the corner at a full width. Instead, I'd like to leave only a narrow band near the walls, and then mill away this narrow band by itself. It may also become necessary to reduce the feedrate on this last perimeter pass as well, because as seen in the illustration, when cutting away the previous pass' leftover material, the corner radius will be cutting material away - and there's no chip-thinning effect going on at the corner-radius...

Edit to add:After thinking about this some more, I suppose this becomes less of a problem, the closer you get to the max D.O.C, as the normal-cutting and corner-cutting loads become closer. Maybe that's why Sandvik recommends the .075" D.O.C. :scratchchin: If that's the case - that it's best to run high-feed mills at their maximum D.O.C. - then I suppose it's critical to match the cutter's diameter to your machine's limitations... Hmm, more food for thought... :scratchchin:
 
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recently we got a sandvik 419, 2 inch high feed mill. getting ready to try this thing out. i have 2 parts made out of 1045, that right now weigh 250 to 300#. will end up like 40#.
ran their calculator online, it gives me 975 sfm (2190 rpm), .031 fpt (275 ipm), 1.1 step over and .075 doc.
holy crap is that right???:skep: i know these things move, all i've seen are videos, and the little bit i've been able to dig up here.
and then another question, i have an area on this part that is 4.13 deep with a 90 degree shoulder. so with this type tool and say face mill arbor with 3 inch gage length be doable???
.
some of those cutters have problems with vibration whether from part or from tool or from tool holder or machine. also if you hit a slag inclusion or hard spot you can loose the inserts fast.
.
at 28 ipm feed by the time you react to loosing the inserts and feed hold maybe the cutter body survives without damage. at 280 ipm it went 10x the distance by the time feed hold is applied. just saying many just use a 6" dia facemill doing 5" wide passes at 0.15" depth at 30 to 50 ipm feed (22.5 - 37.5 cubic inches per min )
 
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275x1.1x.075= 22.69 cubic inches per minute......... silly question how much horsepower does your machine have ??
.
i am guessing you will need 20 to 30 hp

HSMAdvisor gives 12.7 HP @ 20.37 cubic inches. Granted this is only with an approximation of four inserts and whatever it's got for geometry for High Feed Milling Cutters. Hell even the Fadal can do that.
 
Untitled.jpg
here is cutter geometry, if uploaded it correctly, machine is 2 month old haas vf4ss, 30 hp (yes i know thats haas power).
sandviks calculator shows something like 22 hp., i was gonna try more like .05 doc my first go round
jashley, we are east of cynthiana
 
View attachment 130276
here is cutter geometry, if uploaded it correctly, machine is 2 month old haas vf4ss, 30 hp (yes i know thats haas power).
sandviks calculator shows something like 22 hp., i was gonna try more like .05 doc my first go round
jashley, we are east of cynthiana

Can you show what the lead and helix angles are?

Edit: Here's what I got with HSMAdvisor. Sandvik specifies an angle of 19° and I suspect that's not the lead, but the helix angle.

HSMA High Feed.jpg
 
1.1" stepover doesn't sound right for a 2" feedmill. You should be as close to full cutter width as possible.

DOC is also too high for trying out for the first time. I would cut it in half and work your way up. You may very well end up at 0.075 eventually, but save that for another time.

Lastly, there is uncut material in the shoulders that will hammer your inserts at 275 IPM. Most feedmill charts will have an asterisked footnote that recommends significantly reducing the feed rate for repeated shoulder milling.
 
The more I thought about the illustration i posted earlier, I realized something wasn't right... I wasn't considering that the cutter would be rotating, and that the actual cutting zone of the insert would be significantly shorter... I included an updated illustration, that shows a little clearer what happens when you cut up against a shoulder... 1 - You get more material in contact with the insert, compared to normal cutting, and 2 - when the corner-radius begins cutting material, there is no axial-chip-thinning going on.

Granted, because the corner-radius isn't in contact with the wall for it's full radial-engagement, there is a little bit of radial-chip thinning going on at the corner radius, at least while you're moving in a straight line. However, if you're cutting against a wall with the corner radius, and you feed into a corner, you're in for trouble... As you enter a corner and the corner-radius begins seeing increasing radial-engagement, the chip thickness goes up. Once the chip thickness at the corner radius get high enough, the corners will bust off. For instance, if you run the tool into a sharp corner, when you're cutting next to a wall, the chip-thickness at the corner radius will then be in the .07"-.09" range (at 50% radial engagement,), and your corners will bust off in a heartbeat...

See the better illustration below. This shows pretty well what Orange Vise was talking about...
High-Feed, Corner Example 2.JPG
 
high feed

View attachment 130276
here is cutter geometry, if uploaded it correctly, machine is 2 month old haas vf4ss, 30 hp (yes i know thats haas power).
sandviks calculator shows something like 22 hp., i was gonna try more like .05 doc my first go round
jashley, we are east of cynthiana
.
22hp seems about right for a sharp cutter.
.
the trouble with high feeds is sudden failures. like using a carbide twist drill at 35 ipm. might work fine most of the time but when it snaps and you end up digging out the pieces plus any damage to other tools because the holes were not drilled can take a lot of repair time
....... just saying nothing like saving 10 minutes and spending a hour trying to fix a damaged cutter body often high feeds uses more time and money to fix the damage.
 
well just to update, used it squaring up the raw stock today. wow, i took it easy the first pass about 200 ipm, .05 doc bumped on up 270 ipm and .065 doc . no problems all day.
hole lot quieter than i thought it would be. load meter ran about 72%.
anyway, contacted sandvik support about the shoulder milling thing they sent me a pdf to large to upload all of it here. this is one page of it CM 419 appendix_1-1.jpg. i don't really understand what its meaning radius to program 4.5mm. seems to have to do with what jashley mentioned??
and then also read that for profiling i should use either the sm or kh style insert Untitled-1.jpg. and of course i have the pm style??
they didn't really give the answer i was looking for other than to send me this and slow down when i get to the corner.
any thoughts???
 








 
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