What's new
What's new

2011 machines

Seekins

Stainless
Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Location
Lewiston ID
just curious if anyone got a sneak peak at any new Mazak or Mori Horizontal machines at IMTS? I am kicking arround the idea of a new horizontal and was curious if they have new models coming out or if they are sticking with the same thing?
 
I am not knowledgable on their line to say what's new or diff other than what I really noted was the fact that their user interface was HUGE on any of their "flagship" type models. Like 15" wide x 32" tall prox big! Mori was the same way. I have no clue what on Earth a fella would need such a big thing for? Heck - your pushin' buttons down to your knees! :crazy:

If your eyes are that bad that you need granny sized buttons and labels - how you gunna tell if your tool is bad or your parts are good? :skep:


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Glen, just got done hmc shopping....the only one I see bringing out a "new" model was Makino...mostly a new look and sheetmetal, maybe some new control features. I think the main machine is basically the same....hence, no dealing on one since they were waiting on new stock, and no inventory hanging around for fire sale discounting.

I think most all of the Japaneese "M"-brand HMC's continuously improve little bits at a time, and then every so often make a major change...like the change to the DCG from the SH series.

On the used market side - although I know you are looking at new - I have followed the used market for the past year, and the numbers by brand have been quite enlightening. What I have noticed by shear numbers is Mazak and Makino pretty far ahead of anything else out there with Mazak probably more prevalent, then Kitamura or Mori, then Matsuura, an occational Okuma, one in a while a Nigata. So what does all this really mean - probably more Makinos and Mazaks sold than everything else combined. Also take a look at what a late '90's-early 2000's SH50/503 brings compared to a comparable A66 or FH5800 - used Makinos and Mazaks bring higher dollar. I only mention used pricing as a basis for long term quality or maybe just demand, not a consideration during initial purchase and residual value. I used the 500mm's as that is what I have been following. I saw a used '07 Mazak HCN5000 that was listed on KD's site for ~$190k, 80 tools, 18k spindle, good chip conveyor, it went pretty fast. But that was a 6 months ago...things are different now, it would probably bring $225k or better now!

So this doesn't really answer your question, but I don't think there was any major break-throughs by the builders that you may be considering.

Steve
 
Thanks, That does answer my question. I am trying to stay up with technology and just wanted to make sure im not buying a new machine just to have something leaps and bounds better available a couple months after.

Im looking heavily at Mazak because of their linear pallet system. I do like mori's but their LPP system is out of control price wise. They push their CPP system that can add one machine, but adding a machine is just as costly as a complete setup.

Wish i could have made it to the show.

I will have a used Mori NH4000 DCG for sale soon at a good price :)
 
I am not knowledgable on their line to say what's new or diff other than what I really noted was the fact that their user interface was HUGE on any of their "flagship" type models. Like 15" wide x 32" tall prox big! Mori was the same way. I have no clue what on Earth a fella would need such a big thing for? Heck - your pushin' buttons down to your knees! :crazy:

If your eyes are that bad that you need granny sized buttons and labels - how you gunna tell if your tool is bad or your parts are good? :skep:


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox, you'd be amazed how crappy it is going back to a "normal" control after using a big screen with a full keyboard.

When I first went from this:

fanuc.jpg


to this:

FUSION.jpg


I was in heaven. I knew there was no way I'd ever buy a machine with a little dinky monochrome monitor again.

Then I got a Matrix Nexus control with a full keyboard and a much larger screen. Even though I very rarely need to type anything, when I do, it's nice having the keyboard. The big monitor allows other cool stuff, like displaying two programs at once and easily copy/pasting between them. It also lets you get a ton of info on the screen all at once. Program display, current work offset register, actual machine location, location (in the current work offset), distance to go, buffer, current tool, next tool, all of the load monitors, and all of the current G codes all displayed on the same page.

nexus.jpg


Then I got a regular "Matrix" control, which is only on the 5+ axis machines. The keyboard is the same, but the monitor is a few inches bigger, and much more clear. As great as the Nexus control is, it still feels like a big step back after being on the giant, crystal clear screen for a few hours. Jumping from the Matrix to the Fusion control, is like taking a step back in time. :bawling:

matrix-1.jpg
 
Thanks, That does answer my question. I am trying to stay up with technology and just wanted to make sure im not buying a new machine just to have something leaps and bounds better available a couple months after.

Ohh,,, it could be worse than that as it was long ago when Cincinnati's Cintimatics were ALL 2 1/2 axis and Point to Point POSITIONING ONLY.... only the very high end mills had 3 axis contouring controls...

Then they developed the circular interpolation G02 and G03 for the lower cost line... and as the machines were being built the last one with the old control went to... YOU...and the next one on the line with the new control went to... SOMEONE ELSE....How'd ya like to get the one of the last ones that could not do circular... and the fellow across the street got one that did...

Even if you knew the new control was comming, and as distributors we did, we just had no idea when... And with deliveries out to 8 to 10 months, there'd be no way to plan it.
 
Seek:

I thought that you were adding.

Why are you replacing?




Gary:

You mean Helical interp instead of circular?


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
One thing I am not clear on is the purpose of the Mori X series machines. Are they a replacement for the regular N series, the NH4000 is replaced by the NHX4000, or is the X series a more economical series???
 
What i heard from the Mori dealer, is that the X is basicly a upgrade, not a major revision.
X should be slightly cheaper, better cooling trough the casting, control upgrade, different (better?) sheet metal, and more rigid.

It seems they start with the most popular models first.
 
One thing I am not clear on is the purpose of the Mori X series machines. Are they a replacement for the regular N series, the NH4000 is replaced by the NHX4000, or is the X series a more economical series???

The NHX series horizontals are a step backwards. No dual ballscrews, no box-in-box structure, no "DCG", none of that. Basically, everything Mori has peddled as the reason to buy their NH series, has been abandoned on the NHX. The NHX4000 at IMTS was a pretty big disappointment. The toolchanger on the machine was a glorified carousel. No ready pot, and no ATC arm. The control had an LCD display that was about 8 inches wide.

I've also heard that some of the X series machines will be built in China, like the DMG eco series, as Mori is (or already did) move their Chinese headquarters closer to the DMG China factory.
 
Power in Advertising _ or the lack there of?

Was at a local sale a few months ago and was blown away by a small Mori H that they had there. The thing had 3 pallets - w/o going to the pool design! I had never seen nor heard of anything ever being built that way, and I git and read [at least leaf through] a lot of trade journals for a lot of yrs.

Mori ads are stoopid stuff like a pic of a guy with some machine behind him and a caption of:

"It's your turn to be the "Go to Guy"

or

"It's your turn for complete customer service"

... or whatnot.



Seldom if ever doo their ads tell Jack about the bloody machine in the background. What moron in the sales dept tries to seel simply on the name of the company and not bother to tell anything about the machines?

Oh - there is the occassional "product spotlight" short ads nearer the back that quickly go over this or that machine, tool, service, but the big one page color ads say nothing about the model in the background. :rolleyes5:

:gossip:


Anyway - I thought that 3 pallet machine was the cats as_____ ...... :o Meow.

I don't know the travels or the model number. I am not fluent in "Mori". but it was of smaller travels. I'm guessing maybe 24" at best?


------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Gary:

You mean Helical interp instead of circular?


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

No... I mean zactly what I said... Circular (as in G02, G03 )was not available in the early N/C controls... there was no such thing as Cnc yet... and then all of a suden CIRCULAR was available in the low cost machines, Cintimatics, and maybe you were lucky enough to have a later order than the guy across the street by ONE machine and you got the new control with the new ability...This did NOT mean they were now cnc, because they wernt... and the circular arc had to start on a axis crossover point and end on one also...Make it simple, it could start on 12:00...go to 3:00 or 9:00...where you needed to put in the next 90 deg move or straight line move. Cutter Dia Comp came along soon after.. and by that time you could start and end a arc anywhere. That's about the time they tagged them CNC
This happened back in the early 70's... maybe you misssed that?

I just think that the next BIG JUMP forward will be somethng like stick the print or autocad file in this slot... and how many you want in his input, and go back to the boat and go fishin or if you like the golfercourse.. and come back when the machine calls you on the cell phone or sends you a e-mail.
 
I'm bmused that MTBs still do some things "the hard way" - why not put a VGA port on the controller and tell the user to hook up whatever monitor they want? 30" 2560x1600 apple cinema, for example....

Why not have a USB port or even PS/2 Port (I think Hurco *does* actually, so does Centroid) so that normal typing can be done with whatever keyboard the user wants.

[Yes, of course, the e-stop and some other buttons are special, and yes, of course, many customers will want some kind of built-in screen. But jeez guys, it's 2010...]
 
This happened back in the early 70's... maybe you misssed that?


Yeah - kind'a missed that. I have changed a few parts and smacked* the table of a machine that was older than that. (guessing) but the parts that we had on that were only straight cuts anyway, so ....

Are you really sure that you had to start and stop on a quadrant, and not have that info kinda comingled in the fact that you had to prog each quadrant? Even early/mid 80's machines had to have each quadrant prog'd out, but you could start or end anywhere w/in that quadrant.

Ex:

You could start at 10:30 and go to 1:30, but you could not go directly there, you had to go through 12:00 on the way and receive your $200.


*The machine would git lost sometimes. It would jist stop mid prog and dwell eternally. We found that if we smacked the corner of the table with a big rubber hammer - it would continue on aggin as if nothing happened. Was said to be a resolver issue.

I don't think there were too many machines out prior to the days of the 550 was there? You must have been werking in an awfully large shop at that time. ??? (or you bought a used, very early machine?)



I just think that the next BIG JUMP forward will be somethng like stick the print or autocad file in this slot...


I was told this how the Hurco Ultimax (?) control werked clear back in the mid 90's. ??? (print - not acad) I have no experience tho if this is (was?) true or how well it werked.



Why not have a USB port or even PS/2 Port (I think Hurco *does* actually, so does Centroid) so that normal typing can be done with whatever keyboard the user wants.


We tried to transfer a prog from one of our Seimens 810D machines to another via a mem stick and USB port, but couldn't figger out how to communicate with the mem stick. Help on here told us that the port was for keyboard only. :rolleyes5:



--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Yeah - kind'a missed that. I have changed a few parts and smacked* the table of a machine that was older than that. (guessing) but the parts that we had on that were only straight cuts anyway, so ....

Are you really sure that you had to start and stop on a quadrant, and not have that info kinda comingled in the fact that you had to prog each quadrant? Even early/mid 80's machines had to have each quadrant prog'd out, but you could start or end anywhere w/in that quadrant.

Ex:

You could start at 10:30 and go to 1:30, but you could not go directly there, you had to go through 12:00 on the way and receive your $200.

I'm not sure, twas a long time ago when I started with this N/C stuff in 1959...and by the early 70's I didnt actually have to do it anyway, I was selling the machines, not servicing them.


*The machine would git lost sometimes. It would jist stop mid prog and dwell eternally. We found that if we smacked the corner of the table with a big rubber hammer - it would continue on aggin as if nothing happened. Was said to be a resolver issue.

I don't think there were too many machines out prior to the days of the 550 was there? You must have been werking in an awfully large shop at that time. ??? (or you bought a used, very early machine?)

Lots of machines built by a lot of different builders, the major ones A, B, and C...Avey, Burgmaster I think used the GE controls... MARK CENTURY 100 series as I recall and Cinncinnati had their own controls, the Acramatic and as I said above, I was selling, and the details of 30 ..40 yrs ago are a little sketcheee now.

I was told this how the Hurco Ultimax (?) control werked clear back in the mid 90's. ??? (print - not acad) I have no experience tho if this is (was?) true or how well it werked.
I saw a shop that had a Hurco once... looked like a frail little thing...does that count?


We tried to transfer a prog from one of our Seimens 810D machines to another via a mem stick and USB port, but couldn't figger out how to communicate with the mem stick. Help on here told us that the port was for keyboard only. :rolleyes5:
OhhKaaa
 
Ox, Its not that i dont like the mori i have, i just want something else that would be better for my needs. I would like to start over with a pallet system that is expandable and everything would be compatable with it from now on. I could still end up with a mori system, but the machine i curently have isnt the best for my needs.

The mori X machine is their attempt at competing with Haas. Its a mori, but only by name..but priced with simular haas.
 
they still have it.

The "X" machines are additional machines to compete with lower end machinery. Guess they want a piece of that pie :)
 








 
Back
Top