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    Default getting a new machine for mold building

    After a year of talking about it... and dealing with our old Haas's problems.. the boss has decided to buy us a new mill.

    a Haas VM-6


    I almost want to puke.

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    sorry to hear that... I am not a fan of Haas machines for mold work. Sorry there are a lot of people on here that will swear by them but in my opinion they are not built to handle precision mold work. Maybe mold frame work but not hard milling day in day out.

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    doesnt even have scales.... thats ok.. I'm going to get it in writing from haas that the machine can hardmill. either they will write it down, or hopefully the fact they wont will be enough to convince my boss they dont have the balls to do what we need. and cat 40... ugh..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    doesnt even have scales.... thats ok.. I'm going to get it in writing from haas that the machine can hardmill. either they will write it down, or hopefully the fact they wont will be enough to convince my boss they dont have the balls to do what we need. and cat 40... ugh..
    Haas do dual contact cat 40? If so that's fine for mold work. A 50 won't spin fast enough to be productive. Haas will hard mill, not well but with proper programming you can cut just about anything. You can't "grip it and rip it" but if it has enough control you can HSM hard steel all day.

    I can hard mill on a 20 year old Fanuc OM-D on a noodle of a C frame VMC, it's all about technique. Don't get me wrong, my okuma is light years better everywhere for hard milling..but it's doable on old slow equipment.

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    I know you "can do it" but doing it, and doing it well are two different things. I dont trust a haas on a 12+ hour surfacing cut personally. Ive never worked on a haas that could pull it off. there is always some issues. either finish, or accuracy.

    and cat 40 SUCKS for sticking out super long tools deep into mold pockets, especially when you then try to hard mill with said tool. At a minimum I want big+ and I prefer capto or HSK. I don't believe its dual contact cat 40 but I will check.

    im not gonna bitch to much about getting a new machine to work on.. but its a waste of money. for 40k more you can get a "real" machine. dual column, glass scales, accurate for days at a time.. fast... with haas your buying a vf-6 with fine pitch ball screws and a different table... yay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    I know you "can do it" but doing it, and doing it well are two different things. I dont trust a haas on a 12+ hour surfacing cut personally. Ive never worked on a haas that could pull it off. there is always some issues. either finish, or accuracy.

    and cat 40 SUCKS for sticking out super long tools deep into mold pockets, especially when you then try to hard mill with said tool. At a minimum I want big+ and I prefer capto or HSK. I don't believe its dual contact cat 40 but I will check.

    im not gonna bitch to much about getting a new machine to work on.. but its a waste of money. for 40k more you can get a "real" machine. dual column, glass scales, accurate for days at a time.. fast... with haas your buying a vf-6 with fine pitch ball screws and a different table... yay.
    .
    my company bought a $2,400,000 horizontal cnc. just saying cnc are expensive now a days especially if you want it to hold tolerances

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    I know you "can do it" but doing it, and doing it well are two different things. I dont trust a haas on a 12+ hour surfacing cut personally. Ive never worked on a haas that could pull it off. there is always some issues. either finish, or accuracy.

    and cat 40 SUCKS for sticking out super long tools deep into mold pockets, especially when you then try to hard mill with said tool. At a minimum I want big+ and I prefer capto or HSK. I don't believe its dual contact cat 40 but I will check.

    im not gonna bitch to much about getting a new machine to work on.. but its a waste of money. for 40k more you can get a "real" machine. dual column, glass scales, accurate for days at a time.. fast... with haas your buying a vf-6 with fine pitch ball screws and a different table... yay.
    You're talking about a 3 axis mill, if you wanted to do it well you're missing a couple axis, and Okuma, Makino or Hermle on the door, and anywhere from 250-400K in cost

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    I know you "can do it" but doing it, and doing it well are two different things. I dont trust a haas on a 12+ hour surfacing cut personally. Ive never worked on a haas that could pull it off. there is always some issues. either finish, or accuracy.

    and cat 40 SUCKS for sticking out super long tools deep into mold pockets, especially when you then try to hard mill with said tool. At a minimum I want big+ and I prefer capto or HSK. I don't believe its dual contact cat 40 but I will check.

    im not gonna bitch to much about getting a new machine to work on.. but its a waste of money. for 40k more you can get a "real" machine. dual column, glass scales, accurate for days at a time.. fast... with haas your buying a vf-6 with fine pitch ball screws and a different table... yay.
    I know how you feel, been there before. It's a bittersweet feeling when the man with the chequebook finally agrees to invest in a new machine, only to shy away from getting what you really need. I don't know how much sway you have at your place, but here I have been able to stand my ground and say "no, that's not going to work", and open the door to some kind of compromise. Maybe if you make enough noise...

    Besides the lack of rigidity, plain 40 taper is a terrible spindle interface for long duration runs at high speeds. The holder pulls up into the spindle as things warm up and your tool length becomes another variable that you have to deal with.

    Maybe you could point him towards a doosan or something that would have BBT as standard? There is probably not much difference in price.

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    I'm a Haas leg-humper, but I can't imagine buying one for precision hard milling of molds. Besides, I have never had a machine that I liked less than the VF6... slow accelerations, low rigidity (even for a Haas), and absolutely tore up my back because of the shape of the machine.

    Oh well, when someone gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... I'm pretty sure the Haas VF6 has enough rigidity to make lemonade, as long as you use the right cutter and slow down the feeds and speeds

    In all reality though, really focus on the new high speed toolpathes and you should be fine. They seem much more tolerant of low rigidity and lack luster spindle torque.

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    Depending how many molds you make per year and how high you are up the ladder..

    Time study. Show him how much money he will LOSE over X amount of years for slower rapids, re-doing the finishing tool path cuz shit aint right etc. It adds up real quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    After a year of talking about it... and dealing with our old Haas's problems.. the boss has decided to buy us a new mill.

    a Haas VM-6

    I almost want to puke.

    Along with some Haas machines we have Makino's, OKK's, Mori's and Niigatas...

    Well, you can use a Haas for cavity work but don't expect a finish comparable to a high end machine using the same cutting data. Don't push it load wise either. We have some Haas horizontals we use for roughing and they shake and shudder when we push them hard.

    By the way, we have a problem with our VF-6 which prevents it from having linear rapids turned on. It alarms saying it over traveled but it's in the middle of axis travel. The factory told our dealer it's only supposed to be used on 5-axis machines and it should be turned off on all other machines which IMO is a total BS excuse to relieve themselves of liability. Only our VF-6 has the problem and our VF-8, VF-2YT's and EC-1600's do not. Haas may have fixed the bug but you might want to look into it if your programs require linear rapids. You can also program for fast G01 positioning but IMO that's a BS workaround too.

    On the flip side a good Haas dealer should give you great support, including stocking of commonly used parts and application engineers who know the machines well.

    NX 11.0.2
    NX 12

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    Iíve been doing some hard milling on a haas vm2 we also make electrodes on it. It takes some time and some tweeking but Iíve held a few .0001s on features always always run a warm up cycle before setting tool lengths... I always shoot for my desired depth on the first shot and it usually hits size within .0002/.0003 I havenít had much luck trying to take .0005 or so off a face of hardened S7 around 57Rc Iím running HSM paths... what rpm spindle do you have?

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    it will be equipped with 15k spindle.. which unfortunately is the highest option.

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    checked and the spindles are also not dual contact cat 40. just plain old cat 40...

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    Maybe it will have a Haasbeast sticker.....

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    Well his did not list the type of mold he would be making or the tolerances he needs to hold. So why all the assumptions? You can tell Magarette Mary your story but do not expect not to get an over reaction.

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    We make good american made hardened steel molds. from single cavity 50 ton molds up to about 750 ton multi cavity molds. we only do about 20 a year and most are family tools. Small shop, but growing rapidly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorsports-X View Post
    it will be equipped with 15k spindle.. which unfortunately is the highest option.
    Good-luck! thatís 3k more than what I have... haha let us know when you get it up and running!

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    I know the feeling. At a previous job, I was told we were getting two new lathes and a robot in a turn-key, and I'd be the one responsible for the cell. --- We ended up getting two knock-off Korean machines...

    A couple years later, we were quoted a very similar cell, with better automation, same robot and two Okuma LB3000's...



    for $10k more...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I know the feeling. At a previous job, I was told we were getting two new lathes and a robot in a turn-key, and I'd be the one responsible for the cell. --- We ended up getting two knock-off Korean machines...

    A couple years later, we were quoted a very similar cell, with better automation, same robot and two Okuma LB3000's...



    for $10k more...



    they probably didn't spend the 10k the second time either


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