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Hardinge/Bridgeport V1000 Opinions? VS Kitamura 4XiD

red beard

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Grand Rapids, MI USA
I'm planning on purchasing a new VMC this year and the Hardinge V1000 is currently at the top of my list. I found some older threads on this model with mostly good reviews, but at that point I don't think many people had used them for very long. I was wondering what people thought of the V1000 after using it for awhile.

Looking at the specs it appears to be the most machine for the money in its class, but I do have a couple of concerns.

First, the control: I have no experience with Mitsubishi controls. Most of my experience is with Fanuc and Milltronics. I purchased a used turning center with a Siemens 840C last year, and I'm finally getting used to that. I haven't heard anything bad about Mitsubishi, but I would like to hear what others think of this M70V control.

Second, my biggest concern, is the Rigidity. We cut a lot of stainless in our shop, so rigidity is very important. Yes, the V1000 is heavy (15400 lbs) and it has good-sized ballscrews (45mm) but the ways seem kind of light. The ways on the V1000 are ball-type linear ways; 35mm on the X axis and 45mm on Y and Z. For comparison, the next machine on of my list, the Kitamura 4XiD, has 63mm ROLLER linear ways. It would seem that the Kitamura would be significantly more rigid.

A lot of the jobs that the new machine would be running are currently being run on on old Box-way Supermax Max-3. Is the Hardinge going to be a big step down in rigidity vs our old Supermax?

The Kitamura comes in at $13k more than the Hardinge. They both have the same control. The Hardinge has a better warranty. The Kitamura has a 40 tool changer vs 30 on the Hardinge. The Kitamura has a belt driven spindle vs direct drive on the Hardinge.
 
I'm surprised there aren't any comments yet.
There's a pretty good comparison on youtube between the old Hardinge (GX1000 I think) and the new V1000.
It seems to be pretty beefy.


Personally I would lean towards the Kitamura. With 40 tools, and big roller ways, I don't imagine it could be less rigid than smaller ball ways.

Are they the same for service?
$13k difference would be eaten up pretty quick if your tech has to fly from the opposite coast for any problems.

Edit: Can you get them both to run one of your more difficult parts, with the same tools you use, and see how it turns out?
There's nothing like a cutting comparison to see which is better.
 
The Kitamura has a significant advantage with the ways. What about the ball screws?

To be honest, its almost TOO significant.

OP I would maybe double check those numbers. Seems crazy that Kitamura would put 100% bigger rails for X and 50% bigger rails for Y. And roller to boot?

If the spindle is roughly the same power on the Kitamura, with a 40 ATC, and if those rail sizes are right, it'd be a no brainer for me.
 
I'm surprised there aren't any comments yet.
There's a pretty good comparison on youtube between the old Hardinge (GX1000 I think) and the new V1000.
It seems to be pretty beefy.


Personally I would lean towards the Kitamura. With 40 tools, and big roller ways, I don't imagine it could be less rigid than smaller ball ways.

Are they the same for service?
$13k difference would be eaten up pretty quick if your tech has to fly from the opposite coast for any problems.

Edit: Can you get them both to run one of your more difficult parts, with the same tools you use, and see how it turns out?
There's nothing like a cutting comparison to see which is better.

Both distributors are out of the Detroit area (a 2-3 hour drive from here); Gosinger for the Hardinge and Methods Equipment & Associates for Kitamura. As far as I know, both distributors have a good reputation.

I am considering asking for a demo with my parts, but it would take a lot more of my time to get that all set up.
 
To be honest, its almost TOO significant.

OP I would maybe double check those numbers. Seems crazy that Kitamura would put 100% bigger rails for X and 50% bigger rails for Y. And roller to boot?

If the spindle is roughly the same power on the Kitamura, with a 40 ATC, and if those rail sizes are right, it'd be a no brainer for me.

I know what you mean. I double checked the email that the Kitamura salesman sent me, and those are the numbers that he gave me. It seems odd that Kitamura doesn't publish that information in their literature when it appears to be so much better than any other machine in its class.

It seems strange to me that everything on the Hardinge is built heavy and powerful except for arguably, the most important part, the ways. Iv'e looked at about a dozen machines and they are among the lightest rails. I was wondering if I was missing something. I really want to like the Hardinge. $13k is a lot of money for a small shop like mine, but if it's the wrong machine for me, then it's worth spending the extra money for the right machine.
 
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If you are already talking to Gosiger you should get them to quote an Okuma 560 too. Okuma America will get very aggressive on pricing when going up against Hardinge and the 560's are very well equipped out of the box. Otherwise I would lean towards the Kitamura - they make very good machines.
 
If you are already talking to Gosiger you should get them to quote an Okuma 560 too. Okuma America will get very aggressive on pricing when going up against Hardinge and the 560's are very well equipped out of the box. Otherwise I would lean towards the Kitamura - they make very good machines.

I had asked the salesman when he was here and the Okuma is significantly more than the Hardinge. ($40k+ if I recall correctly.)
 
I know what you mean. I double checked the email that the Kitamura salesman sent me, and those are the numbers that he gave me. It seems odd that Kitamura doesn't publish that information in their literature when it appears to be so much better than any other machine in its class.

It seems strange to me that everything on the Hardinge is built heavy and powerful except for arguably, the most important part, the ways. Iv'e looked at about a dozen machines and they are among the lightest rails. I was wondering if I was missing something. I really want to like the Hardinge. $13k is a lot of money for a small shop like mine, but if it's the wrong machine for me, then it's worth spending the extra money for the right machine.


No experience on the new machines, but I have some of the older machines that Hardinge rebranded back-in-the-day (Yang) and they are built in the same manor I believe. They have a lot of daylight between the rails, not the skinny spacing like on a Fadal - which I just cringe every time I see.... While they have so much space there, they still have a 1 pc rear way cover and the column is VERY wide to allow it to pass through! It may not be a bridge, but it has got to be the next closest thing!

Now one thing about the wide rail spacing is that you end up with it nearly as far (or even further?) between trucks side to side as you are in length, which could allow the table or head to get slightly cattiwompus, so Hardinge (and Yang prior to them) has put in a 3rd rail that is 1/2 length on all axi's, and a 5th truck on it. This is to keep the axis square with the world.


So, while they may be smaller, I wonder spacing them out further creates at least as much rigidity as the heavier rails spaced closer? (I don't know)


I have no rigidity concerns with my machines, but I can't directly compare them to anything other than a cpl of early 1980's Cinci's.


------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Okuma will deal on the 560, still going to be 15k or so more than the v1000 list price. It's worth it, the 560 is a huge value. The v1000 is a good machine but if you are worried about rigidity the bridge construction on the Okuma is pretty amazing. Don't worry about the mits control, they power a lot of the mazak controls, similar to Fanuc code but nicer options and parts are available.

The osp300 is also a great control, on a great mill.

Kinda out of left field but look at hwacheon and Doosan, I just landed a hwacheon box way lathe and I'm impressed so far. Hwacheon makes several styles of mill, including one that looks an awful lot like the 560. Fanuc controls.

I've heard good things about the Doosan DNM mills too.
 
Don't worry about the mits control

I'm relatively new to CNC controls, but have used Haas, Mits (on Hardinge V1000) and Okuma P300. I hated the Hardinge / Mits implementation – that was a major secondary factor in pushing me to spend the extra money on the Okuma M560(primary being the dual column rigidity).

I agree that the V1000 is a nice beefy machine. Lots of cast iron there. Nice and quiet too... I think it is a much better value than a Haas as well...

But that control sucks! Keep in mind that Mits on Mazak or Mits on DMG Mori machines has a pretty front end. Hardinge just put the vanilla Mits control on the machine, then added a bunch of extra key switches, mode selection knobs and buttons to it. Just as an example, the way they require you to turn keys to switch between MDI, Prog and Run modes is absurd. The Mits control turns simple tasks like copying files into a maze of button pushing. Not my favorite... Perhaps not all that different than running a vanilla Fanuc control??

So I agree with the Okuma fans above... If you can swing it, get the M560...
 
......Just as an example, the way they require you to turn keys to switch between MDI, Prog and Run modes is absurd. The Mits control turns simple tasks like copying files into a maze of button pushing. Not my favorite...

Most of what you describe is attributable to the machine builder, not Mitsu. A plain jane Mits install would just have a simple rotary switch to change modes. Mits controls include ladder editing capability and if you are the least bit savvy with ladder logic, you could edit the Hardinge ladder program and eliminate those keyswitch operation.
 
...
Now one thing about the wide rail spacing is that you end up with it nearly as far (or even further?) between trucks side to side as you are in length, which could allow the table or head to get slightly cattiwompus, so Hardinge (and Yang prior to them) has put in a 3rd rail that is 1/2 length on all axi's, and a 5th truck on it. This is to keep the axis square with the world.

...
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I'm not sure if they still build them that way. The new V1000 has six trucks on the Z axis, but I haven't seen any mention of a third rail or fifth truck on the X and Y.
 
Okuma will deal on the 560, still going to be 15k or so more than the v1000 list price. It's worth it, the 560 is a huge value. The v1000 is a good machine but if you are worried about rigidity the bridge construction on the Okuma is pretty amazing. Don't worry about the mits control, they power a lot of the mazak controls, similar to Fanuc code but nicer options and parts are available.

The osp300 is also a great control, on a great mill.

Kinda out of left field but look at hwacheon and Doosan, I just landed a hwacheon box way lathe and I'm impressed so far. Hwacheon makes several styles of mill, including one that looks an awful lot like the 560. Fanuc controls.

I've heard good things about the Doosan DNM mills too.

I know there are a lot of Okuma fans here, and I'm sure they are great machines. But the current price on the Okuma Genos 560 is $125k. (The price may have been lower when you purchased yours.) The Hardinge is $80k. You might be able to get them down a few thousand on the Okuma, but there is no way that they're dropping the price $30k. If I was doing production work, I would definitely be looking at the Okuma, but we're a small job shop. Most of our orders are for 100 pieces or less. We are not going to be wearing out the machine any time soon. I don't see where spending the extra $30-40k would pay back.

I looked at the Doosan, it was about the same price as the Kitamura. The Kitamura seems like a better value.

There doesn't appear to be any Hwacheon dealers in Michigan. I know one local shop that has a Hwacheon turning center, and they had a lot of issues with it.
 
That 45K price difference drops quickly when you look at what the 560 includes standard (and what they will throw in when you start haggling)vs. the other guys. By the time you add through spindle coolant, probes, a conveyor, and other goodies the prices are much more level. We run the piss out of ours 10 to 12 hours a day and are going to have robots on both of them by the end of the year to try to make them go 24/7. After my experience with Asian Hardinges (have a GX-480) there is no way they would reliably run all night (tool changer hangs, mysterious pauses, stuff like that) day after day.
 
I know there are a lot of Okuma fans here, and I'm sure they are great machines. But the current price on the Okuma Genos 560 is $125k. (The price may have been lower when you purchased yours.) The Hardinge is $80k. You might be able to get them down a few thousand on the Okuma, but there is no way that they're dropping the price $30k. If I was doing production work, I would definitely be looking at the Okuma, but we're a small job shop. Most of our orders are for 100 pieces or less. We are not going to be wearing out the machine any time soon. I don't see where spending the extra $30-40k would pay back.

I looked at the Doosan, it was about the same price as the Kitamura. The Kitamura seems like a better value.

There doesn't appear to be any Hwacheon dealers in Michigan. I know one local shop that has a Hwacheon turning center, and they had a lot of issues with it.

Yep, they will deal. Like I said it'll still end up being more but I bet you can get them down a ways. Hwacheon is expanding but yeah dealers seem to cycle with them. The lathe we just bought is impressive so far, just a basic msy 8 inch chuck lathe. Heavy...everything is heavy duty. I was impressed by the lineup of machines when I was doing research, I think the Sirius mills are the bridge style machines.

As far as the Okuma, the 560 is a gem in the 40x20 ish mill market. We are a job shop..that does longer production runs and tool and die work. 1000 pc 304 order in it today, last week it made die components all week, one of each. It eats tool steels and stainless all day and tolerances and tool life are really good, it surfaces like a champ. Great iron. My only regret is that I waited so long to buy one. I'll never go back to Fanuc for milling.

I looked at the v1000 and its a good machine, definitely a good value and Hardinge is a solid company. I own a few lathes and a mill, they are solid reliable machines and the service through Morris is good. I just got a deal from Okuma I couldn't pass up.
 
I'm not sure if they still build them that way. The new V1000 has six trucks on the Z axis, but I haven't seen any mention of a third rail or fifth truck on the X and Y.

You're right.
I just looked at the brochure and they say 3 trucks Z, 2 trucks X & Y, with no mention (nor doo I see) a third rail on either of the new models.


----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
That 45K price difference drops quickly when you look at what the 560 includes standard (and what they will throw in when you start haggling)vs. the other guys. By the time you add through spindle coolant, probes, a conveyor, and other goodies the prices are much more level. We run the piss out of ours 10 to 12 hours a day and are going to have robots on both of them by the end of the year to try to make them go 24/7. After my experience with Asian Hardinges (have a GX-480) there is no way they would reliably run all night (tool changer hangs, mysterious pauses, stuff like that) day after day.

The Hardinge includes a chip conveyor at that price. I don't need probing at this time. I'm on the fence right now about TSC. The Hardinge comes prepped for TSC. The sales rep (who was a service tech up until a couple of years ago) said TSC is field installed, so I can easily add it later if I want to. It doesn't appear that the Okuma includes any of those options in their base price (I'm not sure about TSC), so I wouldn't expect the price to go down after adding those options.

My VMC usage is quite different from yours. On a typical work day this machine would be running about 3-4 hours. There are some days where all three of my VMCs are running all day, but we only run one shift. We have no where near the usage that you have. Basically, I'm asking which 1/2 ton pick up truck should I get, and you(and others) are telling me I need to buy an F350 because that's what your shop needed.
 
Well, I may have spoken too soon on the Okuma pricing. Two weeks ago the price was $119k without a chip conveyor. The Gosinger salesman stopped in yesterday and tells me that Okuma has a special promotion for shops without any Okuma equipment. (I'm well aware that this may have been salesman BS after mentioning that I was looking at the Kitamura.) The promotion brings the price much closer to the price of the Kitamura. It's still higher, but close enough that I at least have to think about it.
 








 
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