Hardinge Conquest T42SP sub spindle dead

rumplestiltskin · Jun 28, 2017

Newly acquired Hardinge Conquest T42SP live tool+sub spindle. The machine is mid-90s with Fanuc 18T. No indicator lights or response for sub spindle functions (open/close). Programming M33 returns "Invalid M-code" alarm. Does anyone have a schematic for this machine? Any ideas on how to troubleshoot sub spindle?

The last (right-most) I/O module never lights up. Anyone know what it does?

Thanks.

Tom · Jun 29, 2017

It is very possible that someone has turned off the sub spindle option on the machine. The option is activated through a Keep Relay, I would check this first. It is K05.4 where 0 = off and 1 = on. If this is set to 0 then the machine ignores all sub spindle commands and operation. To finds the Keep Relays:
Press the SYSTEM function key
Press the PMC soft key
Press the PMCPRM soft key
Cursor down to K05
Bit 4 is the 5th bit in from the RIGHT and needs to be a 1
I don't remember if you can cursor across that line or not to only change bit 4, you may have to type in the complete 8 digit line and press input. I would take photo of the page before you change it.
You must have PWE turned to enable and be in MDI mode with the edit key off

Tom

Tom · Jun 29, 2017

I forgot one step in finding the Keep Relays
Once you press the PMCPRM soft key
Press the KEEPRL soft key
Cursor down to K05

Tom

rumplestiltskin · Jun 30, 2017

Thanks for your help, Tom. After changing the word from 11001000 to 11011000, the sub spindle collet light came on and Aux button is functional. Bad news is that there is a collet (gripping a piece of metal) being held tight in the closed sub spindle while the collet-open light is stuck on and there is no response from collet-close button either mechanically or on the control panel. That's probably why someone turned the bit off - can't run with collet open.

If the collet is stuck closed mechanically, I would expect some kind of response from the hydraulic system when the bit is enabled; no sound or movement is detected. The hydraulic gauge for the collet is in the green zone and the relay on the valve is lit (side toward machine) when K05.4 is true.

Ox · Jul 1, 2017

Valve is likely not shifting. I have had the sub get slow before, but never complete stop, so my guess is valve not shifting.

First I would switch the hoses around to make sure that it will open with the pressure switched the other way.

If that works, then make sure that coil is good on valve. Maybe swap coils with the main collet valve to check.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rumplestiltskin · Jul 3, 2017

I fixed the stuck valve and rigged up a pendant so I can switch from open to close while observing the sub spindle with the quick-cover off. I can hear the pump switching and feel the pressure in the hydraulic lines, but nothing mechanical seems to be happening with the collet closer. Since I haven't seen this function in operation, I don't know if I should expect to see any movement under the cover. Unless someone can talk me out of it, I think the next step is to remove the door and dive in.

Could the collet simply be stuck so that the closer simply doesn't have the guts to push it out?

Ox · Jul 7, 2017

[you have prolly already worked on this, but...]

It is possible that the part in the sub collet is oversize, and the collet simply cannot open any further.
All it takes is for the finish tool to chip, or wear a lot while running un-attended.

I think that I would start by drilling/boring the stuck part out.
THEN see if the collet/actuator will move.

If not, then pull the actuator and tube out and tear it apart, clean well, blow out the check valves real good.
Change hydro filter.
Try NOT to crush the check valve spacer when puting back together. You can easily over tighten the plugs.

I've had them get real slow, but like I said - I don't think that I ever had one completely stop.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rumplestiltskin · Jul 16, 2017

Does this closer look right?

I've never seen the sub-spindle closer in action, but from the drawings I have seen, I would think there would be a gap at the arrow, at least when the collet is closed. Right now, there is no clearance even for a piece of paper. Perhaps I'm wrong and all the motion is internal.

I'm thinking of making a spanner to grab the aux pin holes and trying to turn the drawbar with more force than I'd want to put against the aux pin. I hate to drill out the collet without knowing what's going on; manual says to avoid closing on an empty collet.

rumplestiltskin · Jul 16, 2017

Does this closer look right?

I've never seen the sub-spindle closer in action, but from the drawings I have seen, I would think there would be a gap at the arrow, at least when the collet is closed. Right now, there is no clearance even for a piece of paper. Perhaps I'm wrong and all the motion is internal.

I'm thinking of making a spanner to grab the aux pin holes and trying to turn the drawbar with more force than I'd want to put against the aux pin. I hate to drill out the collet without knowing what's going on; manual says to avoid closing on an empty collet.

Ox · Jul 16, 2017

No, all motion is not internal.
Is the part still in the collet?

If she deepthroated an oversized part, she'sgunna choke on it.
There wouldn't be any movement to speak of.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rumplestiltskin · Jul 17, 2017

Ox,

It would appear that I have been had. I gave a little push on the broken-off part with a bolt, and it turned out to be an ejector pin. Seems she's trying to stick her tongue out at me, eh?

That leaves the question of why the collet is in so tight. Maybe just over-tightened. Maybe that's why my sub-spindle-open button is stuck on; somebody could have gotten rough with the touch-pad when it didn't seem to be doing anything.

There's also the question about why switching to collet-close doesn't seem to have any affect.

Ox · Jul 17, 2017

Seems that you have 2 issues?

1) Why the LED on the button doesn't switch when you push it?
That would seem to designate to me that the PLC is certainly not shifting the output.
I thought that you had that all fixed with Tom's help?

2) When you switch the hoses around - you still can't get any motion the other way?
Are you sure that you are even getting any flow?

Prolly the easiest place to switch the hoses around would be at the back of the rotary union.
You can leave a hose off and cycle the power on for a second - just long enough to see if y'all are getting any flow on either hose.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rumplestiltskin · Jul 18, 2017

The switch is stuck on "open", as witnessed from the LED at the valve. Most likely a shorted membrane switch on the control panel. With the control wires pulled from the solenoids, I can control the valve with a remote pendant and external power supply. When switched to "close", the LED (on the front panel) for "closed" lights up as if I had pushed the button on the control because it is driven by the pressure switch, not the button. Can't run any programs in this condition, I guess because PLC still sees the stuck "open".

Well, that's all very interesting, but I would think with the ring that clamps the draw tube sitting on top of the sub-spindle housing,

I'd be able to break the draw tube loose. I'm guessing we're chip-bound.

Ox · Jul 18, 2017

To remove the collet, there is a small air cyl that is s'posed to engage that peice with the two holes in it - just to the right of your red arrow. Then you turn the spindle itself via a tool engaged in one of the holes in the face of the spindle. Generally you are to use one of the two small - non threaded holes.

The collets groove is engaged in a pin in the spindle.

The draw tube will not go out the front.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rumplestiltskin · Aug 13, 2017

How to remove flange from T42 sub-spindle closer

To break this loose, I had to use a ten-ton bearing puller and a hammer. I've worked it back and forth a few times and now I can move it with a dead-blow hammer. Brake-Kleen will remove the varnish build-up if I can get at the surfaces. Does anyone know how to remove the outer flange (black ring on right). I'm not sure if it's a well hidden thread+Loctite or a press/shrink fit.

Ox · Aug 13, 2017

I [think] it's threaded, but been a while since I've had that ring off, and not sure that there was need to have taken it apart that far, but if you're all gunked up - then ... yeah....

Is that rusty then too?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ThePrecisionist · Aug 22, 2017

You may be chasing your tail here. First, do you know how to remove a collet from the Sub? You must engage the Aux Function switch so the lock pin engages the Sub. Then use your hands to turn the Sub towards he Turret and the collet will back out. If you can't turn the spindle use a rubber or leather strap wrench applied to the OD of the Sub and again turn towards the Turret.

Another thing to consider. These SG-machines have an oddity with that Aux Function/Sub-Spindle lock. When the proximity sensor on the Bimba lock pin goes. The control will not "see" or show this condition. What it will do is put the machine in a complete NO RUN situation. But the control will not alarm out or show you why you are in NO RUN. The Fanuc Ladder will. The Ladder will show that the signal is stopping at the Bimba lock pin switch. And that is most likely why the SUB is in a no response situation. The shutting off of the Keepreel parameter was a Band-Aid fix to get the main spindle and machine running again. You have solved that parameter problem. But now you need to either jump out two terminals or replace the Bimba switch. Ask me how I know all this??

BTW. Your idea about the machine not running because the Sub collet is not clapmed is false. Only the main is wired with Zero Speed and this safety function. The SUB must be able to run with the collet open. How would the Sub sync and swallow a part from the Main Spindle with the Sub closed?

Hope this helps.

Ox · Aug 22, 2017

I agree with most of what he said, but my little prox has not worked in several yrs now. This is not good as it will allow you to run with the Bimbo still engaged, but ....

The air valve on mine died too, and for the last cpl yrs I have just ran an air line to that cyl and juice it when I need it. (Spring return) I'll prolly just stick with that. LOL!

And yes - I have chased my tail once - doo to that little prox switch flaking out. Had to watch the ladder to see it fluttering....

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ThePrecisionist · Aug 22, 2017

I agree with 62.5% of what you said too!
All kidding aside. My Bimba lock pin had an electronic failure. Not air.
And Hardinge missed this potential problem when designing the machine.
So it can put you in a dead stop with no machine (alarm) indication.

Ox · Aug 22, 2017

I've read a report that says that 78.6% of all numbers are made up.

???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Hardinge Conquest T42SP sub spindle dead

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