Hardinge - Ohio/Kentucky

Apparently this officially went down 60 days ago, but I saw it on the front page of Manufacturing News last night, and called my Gossiger guy for confirmation this morning:

Motch and Eichele out of Cleveland is now the official Hardinge rep for our states.

However - per my Gossiger guy, he says that they are still representing the line of Hardinge mills under the "Bridgeport" brand, while the others will simply be badged as Hardinge mills. Pretty sure that Gossiger does not have any [Hardinge/Bridgeport] lathes to sell in these 2 states. Just mills.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Wasn't there some big talk of a bunch of changes with hardinge and dealers(like dropping all of them with zero notice or something?) just prior to IMTS last year?
What ever happened with all that? I can't remember any conclusion on that thread, IMTS happened, I think many expected to hear what the new deal was, then nothing?. Is this part of that change still going down?

There's been a lot of musical machine/dealer thing going on the last year or 2.

Rumors are flying regarding Hardinge and the service/dealer network...new president at Hardinge so change is to be expected. I can tell you that Morris does a decent job taking care of parts on existing machines, but they are not pushing the Hardinge brand on the sales side.

Hmmmm


I kinda bailed on the Hardinge thing as I didn't want to be the one flying the "Flag" for them in Rocky Mountain Region... I like Hardinge a lot but in my case not sure it would be super wise for me to bridge such a gap on my own... (At least for 5 axis machinery); I didn't know there was a new President...

Maybe I do some poking around etc.

So could be change for better or is it change for the worse? (Their share price has jumped up a bit? Maybe confidence in the new CEO?).

Or is it change/contraction so that Hardinge stays in business (in the USA), better /longer/ stronger ?

http://files.shareholder.com/downlo...1D6F5/HDNG_News_2017_8_3_General_Releases.pdf

Hardinge Inc. - Investor Relations

http://files.shareholder.com/downlo...-FEEF93D6A85C/20170511_HDNG_Names_New_CEO.pdf

News - Turning, Milling, Grinding, Workholding, Parts, Service, Applications, Support Services

^^^Motch and Eichele (you already know about).

News - Turning, Milling, Grinding, Workholding, Parts, Service, Applications, Support Services

^^^^ Same blah blah about new CEO.


Seems to be a lot of talk of "Re-structuring " and "Saving money"... So Hardinge could be retreating, consolidation what it has, as well as a bit contraction regionally. (maybe/sounds like it ?).

There was a featured article with all the details about this on the home page of Practical Machinist two months ago. I heard about it one day at work and was told that it wasn't public knowledge, but when I came home that night and got online I read the article right here.

Other Brother said:

There was a featured article with all the details about this on the home page of Practical Machinist two months ago. I heard about it one day at work and was told that it wasn't public knowledge, but when I came home that night and got online I read the article right here.

Click to expand...

HARDINGE GROUP TO PARTNER WITH MOTCH AND EICHELE AS THEIR EXCLUSIVE HARDINGE BRANDED PRODUCT DEALER IN OHIO AND KENTUCKY | Practical Machinist

:-)

Wondering what the bigger picture might be?

cameraman said:

HARDINGE GROUP TO PARTNER WITH MOTCH AND EICHELE AS THEIR EXCLUSIVE HARDINGE BRANDED PRODUCT DEALER IN OHIO AND KENTUCKY | Practical Machinist

:-)

Wondering what the bigger picture might be?

Click to expand...

We shall see. My hope would be a return to US based manufacturing but I doubt that will happen. If Gene can make enough money to go F1 racing building machines in california...I would hope Hardinge could make money building machines in NY...but apparently that wasn't the case.

Hardinge makes the high end lathes in Elmyra yet.
Just not the ones that are competing with Haas.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox said:

Hardinge makes the high end lathes in Elmyra yet.
Just not the ones that are competing with Haas.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

They do? Assembled here maybe? I thought they auctioned off all the production equipment. My impression was that basically work holding is made here, and maybe some prototypes are assembled here but that most production was in Taiwan now.

So your talking the T series, the GT and.....the H series?

XD341 said:

So your talking the T series, the GT and.....the H series?

Click to expand...

Yes, as I understand it.
I drill them on this every cpl years.


It seems that they may build the spindles for some of the other units as well?
I think any of them that have the "collet ready" spindle nose are all built in NY and shipped to Taiwan.
But I would dbl check that before buying on my remembery...

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

XD341 said:

We shall see. My hope would be a return to US based manufacturing but I doubt that will happen. If Gene can make enough money to go F1 racing building machines in california...I would hope Hardinge could make money building machines in NY...but apparently that wasn't the case.

Click to expand...

+1 (big time).

Here's my tin-foil hat nailed to my head... I have always been a little uncomfortable and wary about the whole Taiwan situation. No1 on China's "To do list" is take back Taiwan. Everything else second. Very much like West Germany's constitutional "to do list" of re-unite East and West Germany... So regarding China its really a case of not "If" but when (and that will be super disruptive to businesses there). I really don't abide by Trump and his policies, but one thing I was on the same page was that it was not such a great idea to be feeding the Red dragon with our best manufacturing capabilities and machine tools for the past 25 years. All in the "Hope" that that would naturally dissolve a communist totalitarian regime so we could sell Coca-Cola to 1 billion new customers? Not... Didn't happen, not going to happen! Turns out you can both be a capitalist and still maintain a totalitarian communist regime with hideous human rights records and slave labor for a $1/day and still kick butt economically on the world stage.

All of the MTBs invested heavily in the China "Phenomenon" and 15 years ago some business minding folks were saying things like "We should have our kids learn mandarin and so on...".. Now we are in a situation where China is the Number 2 power in the world and the EU/Germany would rather work out a trade deals with China than the USA...

If you pull out a map of what HARDINGE does world wide it's pretty clear their main financial base and hub is in the Far East... Mainly China, and Taiwan. It's just one of those weird things that machine tools (at least right now), are heavily reliant on Cast Iron foundries and skills and techniques as well as running such foundries in a way that makes economic sense. As lot of you know, a lot of the US based very large machine type builders in the USA have disappeared along with cast iron "Know-how".. I love the whole Hardinge "Thing" and Heritage and I have very positive associations over the years with Hardinge equipment of yester year... But I wonder if the USA is being given short shrift in respect of what Hardinge offers Europe and the Far east?

@XD341 I agree XD writes: "I would hope Hardinge could make money building machines in NY...but apparently that wasn't the case" ? That would be marvelous...

The previous CEO of Hardinge (two Ceo's ago) was giving himself great credit for moving Hardinge manufacturing/machine tool building to the far East and cited that as being critical to the company's survival? AND it is true HAAS does very well... Making stuff 100% in California... (amazing). So I think the Far East "Mindset" is firmly entrenched at Hardinge and when China does take Taiwan (peacefully) probably at least Hardinge will be more able to deal with such a takeover more than any other MTB as they are already so heavily in China.

Hardinge offer's amazing capabilities in Europe that are NOT offered or sustained or supported in the USA... What does that tell you? How much more expensive would that be to Hardinge to make that happen? (shrugging shoulders??? ). Apparently it is too expensive? (Even though everything normally in Europe is way more expensive than the USA... European union is roughly the size of USA now... (So you can't use the argument the USA is physically a continent and Europe is not).

If I was being kinda "Mean" or overly critical, because Hardinge is so closely tied to the American flag, culture and mindset I get the "vibe" or impression that they (Hardinge) lean a bit too heavily on that, and can be a bit "Cheap" in their approach and expect other local vendors to make up particular short falls... Where you get into a situation where economically things become a bit of a "Stale-mate" in the USA on the local level (or at least that's how it appears/seems) as nobody can make any money that way?

Hardinge is fantastic to all of those that are within arms reach of their main hub/hubs, and I have no doubt they serve the DOD (Defense) very well and other large Gov. based entities.


Does make you wonder what Machine tools Kim Jong Un Is using to build his current crop of missiles with? Are those Western machine tools "Trafficked" through China... The capability and results are frighteningly competent?




I admit it is odd to have a company head quarters (like Hardinge) in the USA, and yet it serves European and Far Eastern markets better/much better? And the USA is not that economically viable for them? Hence contraction and being more efficient/cost effective overall. It is a business and has to stay in the game, and if that' s how they stay in the game in the USA so be it. Then they have to do what they have to do.

Ox said:

Yes, as I understand it.
I drill them on this every cpl years.


It seems that they may build the spindles for some of the other units as well?
I think any of them that have the "collet ready" spindle nose are all built in NY and shipped to Taiwan.
But I would dbl check that before buying on my remembery...

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

Huh...I'll have to inquire further. When was the last time you heard of something being built in NY and shipped to Taiwan...that'd be cool if that was the case.

Hardinge are good people with a really solid product, I hope whatever is going on it works out.

XD341 said:

Huh...I'll have to inquire further. When was the last time you heard of something being built in NY and shipped to Taiwan...that'd be cool if that was the case.

Hardinge are good people with a really solid product, I hope whatever is going on it works out.

Click to expand...

They are "Good people"... And the product is Solid...

So their share price suddenly picked up/spiked quite nicely since the new CEO so somebody somewhere must think that things will work out...

But I think if they choose to expand service and support in the USA they are going to have to contract first... then bide their time, create a bit of a war-chest and if manufacturing in the USA proves itself to be viable for them over the next five to seven years then one could indeed expect Hardinge to invest in more territories on a local level. However they will loose market share to the likes of the other MTBs in their price range and class and capabilities on US soil in the meantime,(whilst on their "contraction phase") to the likes of Haas, MAZAK and so on and even DMG Mori). Hardinge move very slowly and conservatively whereas there are other companies that are more able to borrow large amounts of capital and start to take greater risks. Or frankly smaller outfits that are more agile and prepared to take incremental risks on the local level might fare better as well. So in such a case smaller partnerships might make more sense for Hardinge like what OX has flagged here... Motch and Eichele being given the "gig" over Gossinger.

(I wonder if the reasoning behind that has something to with the 5 axis capabilities that Hardinge might want to roll out? i.e. Hardinge does not have to stump up as much $ to have more challenginging and specialized 5 axis systems + control(s), be well supported? And not always be in Okuma's shadow YKWIM? ). That would be my guess but I may be 100% wrong).

cameraman said:

They are "Good people"... And the product is Solid...

So their share price suddenly picked up/spiked quite nicely since the new CEO so somebody somewhere must think that things will work out...

But I think if they choose to expand service and support in the USA they are going to have to contract first... then bide their time, create a bit of a war-chest and if manufacturing in the USA proves itself to be viable for them over the next five to seven years then one could indeed expect Hardinge to invest in more territories on a local level. However they will loose market share to the likes of the other MTBs in their price range and class and capabilities on US soil in the meantime, (like Haas, MAZAK and so on and even DMG Mori). Hardinge move very slowly and conservatively whereas there are other companies more able to borrow large amounts of capital and start to take greater risks. Or frankly smaller outfits that are more agile and prepared to take incremental risks on the local level might fare better as well. So in such a case smaller partnerships might make more sense for Hardinge like what OX has flagged here... Motch and Eichele being given the "gig" over Gossinger.

(I wonder if the reasoning behind that has something to with the 5 axis capabilities that Hardinge might want to roll out? i.e. Hardinge does not have to stump up as much $ to have more challenginging and specialized 5 axis systems + control(s), be supported well?). That would be my guess but I may be 100% wrong).

Click to expand...

The thing that amazes me is the fact that the product is better than Haas at every level, Hardinge makes a competitively priced product to Haas but it's a better lathe, or mill. The H and T series lathes are in weird classes...the H series is probably right there with anybody on accuracy but it's an in between size and collet ready and the T series is in a class almost by itself for accuracy, and priced accordingly. The mills run the gamut from entry level through a pretty nice machine that would rule the mid level market if not for that fact that Okuma dropped the 560 bomb and are willing to deal on price pretty aggressively.

Hardinge doesn't appear to have a product problem, the company itself has been great over the years, it's the dealers that seem to be the tough spot. I think effort on the marketing and dealer network side would pay huge dividends. Maybe this is a step in that direction...maybe there is more to come, who knows?

XD341 said:

The thing that amazes me is the fact that the product is better than Haas at every level, Hardinge makes a competitively priced product to Haas but it's a better lathe, or mill. The H and T series lathes are in weird classes...the H series is probably right there with anybody on accuracy but it's an in between size and collet ready and the T series is in a class almost by itself for accuracy, and priced accordingly. The mills run the gamut from entry level through a pretty nice machine that would rule the mid level market if not for that fact that Okuma dropped the 560 bomb and are willing to deal on price pretty aggressively.

Hardinge doesn't appear to have a product problem, the company itself has been great over the years, it's the dealers that seem to be the tough spot. I think effort on the marketing and dealer network side would pay huge dividends. Maybe this is a step in that direction...maybe there is more to come, who knows?

Click to expand...

Yeah I totally agree... [It's the combination of dealers and Hardinge I think... As you can't lay the "Blame" at Hardinge's feet 100% nor 100% at their dealer's feet either (I think in all cases everybody tries to do the best they can in a diligent way]. It's just an awkward economically based impasse(in some cases). AND the product line up (increasingly) is treading on Okuma's toes and vice versa for dealers that carry both lines (especially on the 5 axis front). It is possible to skillfully make those sit side by side at a dealership, BUT I have always maintained that Hardinge NEED to have dealers that will absolutely put them first. I feel very strongly that Hardinge need those kind of dealerships... AND that also seems to be the model that seems to be working out the best in Europe too. Real centers of excellence that will literally fly a Hardinge/Bridgeport flag outside their premises and similarly have a huge Hardinge Bridgeport sign hanging over their offices and warehouses, not dilute the message or product line... HARDINGE,Bridgeport have an incredibly strong brand and they just don't use it???? .




To be honest the CEO's that Hardinge have had before are not technical industrial "Types" they are "Accounting" and "Management" types that don't really have an "Engineeering"/ manufacturing/ machining / high end industrial backgrounds... They are looking more at strategies based on numerics on spread sheets and general business and financial strategies rather than having an industrial "Vision" for American industry (something I am VERY passionate about and really still believe in)... So the new CEO might have a better vision for that (I would expect, given his experience and background). It's really telling when the old CEO left (two CEO's ago) in his departing speech (which was on the internet and was subsequently deleted), he was going on a lot about the need for more Ph.D.(s) technical "Types" from within the corporation pushing things forward in innovative and productive ways (i.e. be leaders rather than followers)... Seems Hardinge are drawing on expertise from their European partners to help with that + Taiwan... So a step in the right direction, but not sure that will wash up on US soil any time soon?

So it's probably not a coincidence that Hardinge "Moved" and expanded their capabilities to the Far east while Gene HAAS managed to do ever better globally and in the USA. And Hardinge bought all those grinding companies and then there was 2008 crash also. Hardinge did a smart thing (I think) investing in the higher tolerance market as that will become increasingly relevant... The demand for higher and higher tolerances will never go away and that is supposed to be Hardinge's strength and "Wheelhouse".

For HAAS the new UMC (750) platform is an eye opener and represents a different level of thinking from HAAS that I think is very positive. Heavier more precise and complex machines and still very competitive pricing. Maybe the control needs a bit more investment/time?


To me it is frustrating where I think why can't Gene HAAS have a small "Skunkworks" type division for making really high end machine tools that can go toe to toe with any Japanese machine... (Pull together some really good engineers from all over the world for that)[to develop as a special high end sub-class still under the HAAS banner]. But the Japanese machines are so good because of the whole mindset of Japanese company culture and quality and upstream feedback at every level. That's not so much of an American thing but I would predict that WILL become more of an American thing in the future by necessity/(survival of the fittest/natural selection).

In my case having a machine that is just a bit better than HAAS but not as amazeballs as a Makino or high end Okuma kinda put me at MAZAK. [And at least for some of the tighter tolerances I can still get away with stuff], but for sure some of the Hardinge lathes are world leading for the higher tolerance bands without question.

I really hope Hardinge do a "Solid" for the USA, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that... It will be super interesting and important to see how Hardinge "play" things. There will definitely be a lot to learn from them to see how they go about things in the next three to five years.

XD341 said:

Hardinge doesn't appear to have a product problem, the company itself has been great over the years, it's the dealers that seem to be the tough spot. I think effort on the marketing and dealer network side would pay huge dividends. Maybe this is a step in that direction...maybe there is more to come, who knows?

Click to expand...

While I haven't worked in the machine sales side of the industry, I can tell you that in the tooling sales side, this is a big, ongoing battle. Machine builders & dealers have it a little bit better, in that they have firmly defined, exclusive territories, meaning no price-battles within the same geography to erode margins. But the fact of the matter is, when depending on an outside party (dealers) to sell your product, you are at their mercy...

If they are not interested in selling your products, then you are stuck.

cameraman said:

Yeah I totally agree... [It's the combination of dealers and Hardinge I think... As you can't lay the "Blame" at Hardinge's feet 100% nor 100% at their dealer's feet either (I think in all cases everybody tries to do the best they can in a diligent way]. It's just an awkward economically based impasse(in some cases). AND the product line up (increasingly) is treading on Okuma's toes and vice versa for dealers that carry both lines (especially on the 5 axis front). It is possible to skillfully make those sit side by side at a dealership, BUT I have always maintained that Hardinge NEED to have dealers that will absolutely put them first. I feel very strongly that Hardinge need those kind of dealerships... AND that also seems to be the model that seems to be working out the best in Europe too. Real centers of excellence that will literally fly a Hardinge/Bridgeport flag outside their premises and similarly have a huge Hardinge Bridgeport sign hanging over their offices and warehouses, not dilute the message or product line... HARDINGE,Bridgeport have an incredibly strong brand and they just don't use it???? .




To be honest the CEO's that Hardinge have had before are not technical industrial "Types" they are "Accounting" and "Management" types that don't really have an "Engineeering"/ manufacturing/ machining / high end industrial backgrounds... They are looking more at strategies based on numerics on spread sheets and general business and financial strategies rather than having an industrial "Vision" for American industry (something I am VERY passionate about and really still believe in)... So the new CEO might have a better vision for that (I would expect, given his experience and background). It's really telling when the old CEO left (two CEO's ago) in his departing speech (which was on the internet and was subsequently deleted), he was going on a lot about the need for more Ph.D.(s) technical "Types" from within the corporation pushing things forward in innovative and productive ways (i.e. be leaders rather than followers)... Seems Hardinge are drawing on expertise from their European partners to help with that + Taiwan... So a step in the right direction, but not sure that will wash up on US soil any time soon?

So it's probably not a coincidence that Hardinge "Moved" and expanded their capabilities to the Far east while Gene HAAS managed to do ever better globally and in the USA. And Hardinge bought all those grinding companies and then there was 2008 crash also. Hardinge did a smart thing (I think) investing in the higher tolerance market as that will become increasingly relevant... The demand for higher and higher tolerances will never go away and that is supposed to be Hardinge's strength and "Wheelhouse".

For HAAS the new UMC (750) platform is an eye opener and represents a different level of thinking from HAAS that I think is very positive. Heavier more precise and complex machines and still very competitive pricing. Maybe the control needs a bit more investment/time?


To me it is frustrating where I think why can't Gene HAAS have a small "Skunkworks" type division for making really high end machine tools that can go toe to toe with any Japanese machine... (Pull together some really good engineers from all over the world for that)[to develop as a special high end sub-class still under the HAAS banner]. But the Japanese machines are so good because of the whole mindset of Japanese company culture and quality and upstream feedback at every level. That's not so much of an American thing but I would predict that WILL become more of an American thing in the future by necessity/(survival of the fittest/natural selection).

In my case having a machine that is just a bit better than HAAS but not as amazeballs as a Makino or high end Okuma kinda put me at MAZAK. [And at least for some of the tighter tolerances I can still get away with stuff], but for sure some of the Hardinge lathes are world leading for the higher tolerance bands without question.

I really hope Hardinge do a "Solid" for the USA, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that... It will be super interesting and important to see how Hardinge "play" things. There will definitely be a lot to learn from them to see how they go about things in the next three to five years.

Click to expand...

You have a fairly good grasp of the management considering you are several times zones away... I've known engineers at hardinge, actually the smartest person I have ever known was a Hardinge engineer. I think they are doing very cool things and achieving excellent results but wow you have to really pay attention to see it. They don't seem to be pushing the innovation in the marketing. It's there and it's real but they don't talk about it much. Kinda like Fanuc, they have lots of cool tricks nobody has ever heard about.

Hardinge had an excellent relationship with customers that I think we all took for granted, maybe even Hardinge. When they upset the apple cart with the switch from direct support and sales to dealers they really burned some customers. The service was so good from Hardinge that no dealer network could provide the same experience. It was to the point that you really didn't even shop much for different brands, you went and found the Hardinge product that best fit your needs, and you bought it, from the same guy you bought the last one from. After the switch to dealers and the move to taiwan...meh...I shopped. If management had a failure it was underestimating the importance of that relationship.

XD341 said:

Hardinge had an excellent relationship with customers that I think we all took for granted, maybe even Hardinge. When they upset the apple cart with the switch from direct support and sales to dealers they really burned some customers. The service was so good from Hardinge that no dealer network could provide the same experience. It was to the point that you really didn't even shop much for different brands, you went and found the Hardinge product that best fit your needs, and you bought it, from the same guy you bought the last one from. After the switch to dealers and the move to taiwan...meh...I shopped.

Click to expand...

Like x 2
Man - it's not the 90's anymore ....

I know that John Semoure (sp?) sure helped me understand my machine a lot!
I kan't think of at least one of the other guy's that is gone now that held my hand on more than one occassion.

Tom and Bob help when they can - under today's .... layout I guess...
They are good guy's too.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox said:

Like x 2
Man - it's not the 90's anymore ....

I know that John Semoure (sp?) sure helped me understand my machine a lot!
I kan't think of at least one of the other guy's that is gone now that held my hand on more than one occassion.

Tom and Bob help when they can - under today's .... layout I guess...
They are good guy's too.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

Bob the former( or whatever?) Hardinge tech? Dudes a magician. He can realign spindles so well it honestly makes me mad

That's the thing, they had some of the best people in the business, and management didn't see the value. ahhh....the 90's, even the early 2000's were still good times with Hardinge. I hope they do well, they do the toughest part pretty well, they make good iron even the overseas stuff isn't bad. But they gotta get back to building good relationships with customers, that was the secret weapon.

No, an inside guy. Not field tech.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox