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Help with Narrowing Lathe Choices

zipfactor

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Location
USA - OH
Hi All,

I had a screaming deal on a Clausing Colchester Storm 100 that ended up going south :toetap:. I'm now onto greener pastures.

Not being the most familiar with CNC lathe brands, and more specifically the various problems and quirks with said machines, I'd like a little input on a list of potentials I've put together.

The requirements:

  • Parts availability (lower cost to maintain the better)
  • 15" Swing (6" turning diameter)
  • 19" between centers minimum
  • Toolchanger - Turret or Indexing Toolpost OK
  • 20 HP spindle or less (power restrictions)

In reality I don't believe the requirements are all that strict, hence my semi-large list of machines.

What am I using this for? In-house prototyping. I have a manual lathe that needs replacing, and a budget surplus of $30K that I need to dump within the next 6 weeks. This budget includes machine, freight, rigging, electrical hookup, and travel to inspect said machine. The rigging and electrical hookup will be handled in house, so cost probably less than $2K. I won't get into details on the budget surplus, but there are limitations on what it can be spent on. For the ease of discussion, we'll say only capital equipment spending.

For the list of machines:

  1. (2004) Prototrak 1540V -- Prototrak VL
  2. (2004) Prototrak 1745S -- Prototrak SL
  3. (1997) Mori Seiki SL 200 -- Fanuc MSC-518
  4. (2002) Okuma ES-L8 (2500 hours) -- OSP-10UL
  5. (1994) Nakamura TMC-300C -- Yasnac
  6. (1999) Romi G-20 -- Fanuc 21iT
  7. (1993) Mori Seiki SL-15 -- Yasnac
  8. (2000) Hwacheon Hi-ECO 10 -- Fanuc 0TC
  9. (1993) Mazak SQT-15M -- Mazatrol T32-3
  10. (1994) Okuma Cadet LNC-8 -- OSP 5020L
  11. (1991) Mazak QT-15N -- Mazatrol CAM T-2

I'm not overly concerned with which machine is the fastest. I'm not going to be pushing these machines anywhere near their limits I'm sure. A toolchanger would be nice, but not absolutely necessary as we won't run more than 20 parts a most at a time. Most parts that are made would likely have 3 tool changes at most. Depending on the deal that can be worked out, I may be willing to put up with manual tool changes like with a Prototrak machine.

A good conversational interface is necessary, and the importing of CAM files would be ideal. I'm not sure how some of the older machines listed would handle this.

Ok, I think that's it. Fire away! :eek:
 
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A good conversational interface is necessary, and the importing of CAM files would be ideal.

Yet there is no Mazak on your list... MAZATROL on a 2 axis lathe is :cloud9:

I had high school drop outs that had essentially no mechanical skills or math skills
writing their own simple programs within just a few hours.

The iron isn't too shabby either.. Previous place of employment. We had a '95 QT20.
In the 4 years I was there I had to replace a coolant hose and the tool eye.. 10 years
later and that machine has run pretty much trouble free every day, though it did need
another tool eye a few years ago..

My Mazak is an '84 that I've had for over 10 years now.. Total repairs used to be a
$300 spindle encoder and a 39 cent o-ring... A few weeks ago I had an air line fitting
crack in the tailstock, that cost about $3 to fix.

They are still supported, there are a million of them out there. Though they
really don't need a lot of support... A mid to late 90's
with a T+ or T32 will run you 15k or 20k, somewhere in that range.

The Conversational though.. It is so sexy.. I'll never G-code a lathe again in my life
if I can help it.
 
Yet there is no Mazak on your list... MAZATROL on a 2 axis lathe is :cloud9:

I had high school drop outs that had essentially no mechanical skills or math skills
writing their own simple programs within just a few hours.

The iron isn't too shabby either.. Previous place of employment. We had a '95 QT20.
In the 4 years I was there I had to replace a coolant hose and the tool eye.. 10 years
later and that machine has run pretty much trouble free every day, though it did need
another tool eye a few years ago..

My Mazak is an '84 that I've had for over 10 years now.. Total repairs used to be a
$300 spindle encoder and a 39 cent o-ring... A few weeks ago I had an air line fitting
crack in the tailstock, that cost about $3 to fix.

They are still supported, there are a million of them out there. Though they
really don't need a lot of support... A mid to late 90's
with a T+ or T32 will run you 15k or 20k, somewhere in that range.

The Conversational though.. It is so sexy.. I'll never G-code a lathe again in my life
if I can help it.

I'll be completely honest, I was a bit worried because most of what I've found of them early 90's. I've heard mazatrol is the cat's meow though.

I was making an exception for the Mori at 1993. It sounds like Mazaks command the same respect.

In that case, what do you specifically inspect on these guys then? I've added a few that were on my "maybe" list to the master list above.

Is the T-2 not as good as the T32-3 or T-plus?

And finally, is there any possibility of importing CAM files with the Mazaks if the geometry happens to get that complex?
 
I'll be completely honest, I was a bit worried because most of what I've found of them early 90's. I've heard mazatrol is the cat's meow though.

I was making an exception for the Mori at 1993. It sounds like Mazaks command the same respect.

In that case, what do you specifically inspect on these guys then? I've added a few that were on my "maybe" list to the master list above.

Is the T-2 not as good as the T32-3 or T-plus?

And finally, is there any possibility of importing CAM files with the Mazaks if the geometry happens to get that complex?

As for inspecting, I have no clue.. They just seem to work..

As for the control.. The T1 is OLD, early 80's, and its still pretty powerful, though you do
have to lie to it...

I've never used a T2, but I think that came about in '86 or so, The T3 I believe was available
at the same time but was used on live tool lathes... I'm not sure how much you have to lie to
it, or how much functionality they added over the T1.

T32 would have been early 90's, I've never used one of those either. But I'm sure
its better than the T2

T+, late 90's.. It just works. You just give it the geometry, and it does its thing..
I had some guys who thought they had to lie to it, and everything got all screwed up..
Its seldom that you have to lie to it.. ISO/G-code became standard on the T+ I believe,
previously it was an option..

As for "complex" geometry.. No you can't load a file in. I usually just draw it up and
pull some points.. It will figure out a whole lot of the stuff for you, arcs and intersection
points and all that jazz..

I used to write the program at the control from the print while I had a grunt change the jaws..
I never lost, I was always done first.. Its just that fast and easy.
 
Sounds good to me. I hate using the CAM software anyways.

I doubt anything I make is too complex for it, just a lot of features on a part that take a lot of time on a manual machine (o-ring grooves, threading, large radii, long tapers, etc.).

I would think a newer control would be better all things being the same, so I can start crossing a few off the list I suppose.
 
Machine #11 on your list is the Hyundai Hit-18 and uses Siemens 840C. Not user friendly or super popular. Also hard to get parts for these once they merged with Kia. Just my 2 cents.
 
On a cnc lathe you have to look at maximum turning diameter rather than swing. There are lathes with a 6" chuck that may have a stated swing of 18" since that's the diameter that would clear the ways, but the same lathe may have a maximum turning diameter of 5".

If you actually need to turn things that are 15" diameter then you're gonna need a rather healthy machine. For example, I've got an Okuma that has a max turning diameter of 16.75". It will handle chucks up to 15". This is a 20,000# 40hp machine.
 
On a cnc lathe you have to look at maximum turning diameter rather than swing. There are lathes with a 6" chuck that may have a stated swing of 18" since that's the diameter that would clear the ways, but the same lathe may have a maximum turning diameter of 5".

If you actually need to turn things that are 15" diameter then you're gonna need a rather healthy machine. For example, I've got an Okuma that has a max turning diameter of 16.75". It will handle chucks up to 15". This is a 20,000# 40hp machine.

I appreciate the info.

My max turning diameter is no greater than 6". I've yet to turn anything that large on my manual machine.

Most of the machines I've looked at have a minimum 8" chuck, which would fit the bill for my size I believe. That's what I have at the moment.
 
I bumped off the Hwacheon Hi-Tech 200CL as its way at the top of my budget and seems to be overkill (mill-turn).

A few of the Mazaks got bumped for either too much power requirement, condition, or purchase conditions.
 
If you actually need to turn things that are 15" diameter then you're gonna need a rather healthy machine. For example, I've got an Okuma that has a max turning diameter of 16.75". It will handle chucks up to 15". This is a 20,000# 40hp machine.

Years ago in MMS they had an article about some shop making aluminum car rims..
fancy ones, big diameter and they were doing it in a normal sized CNC lathe, I don't
remember if it was an 8" or a 10" chuck.. They had this whole mickey mouse thing
built out in front of the turret.. Call tool 1, and tool one is actually way over
on the other side of the turret where tool 5 should be.. It was pretty neat...
 
Emco machines seem to have a bad reputation as far as service parts, especially on older machines, and especially for service in Ohio. It looks like that one is going to the bad machine pile..
 
Years ago in MMS they had an article about some shop making aluminum car rims..
fancy ones, big diameter and they were doing it in a normal sized CNC lathe, I don't
remember if it was an 8" or a 10" chuck.. They had this whole mickey mouse thing
built out in front of the turret.. Call tool 1, and tool one is actually way over
on the other side of the turret where tool 5 should be.. It was pretty neat...

I have done some stuff like that, out of necessity though, not preference. Drilled holes in the Turret for extra Toolholders or Tools/Drills closer to the center of rotation, meh no thanks.

@ OP. #10 on the list would be ideal IMO. Okuma with a 5020 control, bubble memory, possibly has IGF (conversational) but even if not... No question about the quality of the Machine outside of abuse. Graphics display for NC verification and back-plot. Really no complaint about that Machine.

R
 
@ OP. #10 on the list would be ideal IMO. Okuma with a 5020 control, bubble memory, possibly has IGF (conversational) but even if not... No question about the quality of the Machine outside of abuse. Graphics display for NC verification and back-plot. Really no complaint about that Machine.

R

Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things about the machines. The one in particular is super clean, and somewhat near to me unlike many of the others.

I'll have to see if it has IGF.

After looking on eblah there seem to be a lot of used parts available (memory, control, etc.) for what seems to be reasonable prices.

So if you were to pick an LNC-8, which of the two would you consider:

#1 - OKUMA CADET LNC8 CNC LATHE B37264 | eBay

#2 - Okuma Cadet LNC8 CNC Lathe - See video - Michigan - Free loading | eBay
 
At a glance they look like 6es & 9es to me. I don;t see a Chuck size on either, or hours listed.

Honestly man, for 2 axis Turning...you don't need IGF or any software really. Programming a 2 axis Lathe by hand is sort of the norm, unless you have 2 or more Machines, and doing it is really beneficial to you in the long run. If IGF is a necessity don't buy the Machine with the promise that someone can install it--it's more than the selling price to have IGF retro installed. CAD/CAM vs not CAD/CAM, is an ongoing discussion, particularly concerning 2 axis Lathes. But as I said it has a built in back-plot so proving a program is very little time.

I believe you deal with Gossiger out there, I would see how much for service calls. Ask them about Electronics, which is basically the only thing that fails on those. NO batteries, no lost parameters, no setting G54 for every part, '90's Okuma is just better than everything else.

R
 
One has a chip conveyor while the other doesn't. No big deal until you find out what a PITA it is to clean out the chip pan on most turning centers. Then it becomes a real big deal.

With either one you'd want to make sure it has sufficient ID toolholders. You'll see where they bolt onto the turret in the pics or video. They can be hard to find in the used market as there are minor differences in them for each different model of Okuma lathe. 'Bout a thousand bucks apiece if you had to buy them from Okuma.

Agree with litlerob re the necessity of IGF on a 2 ax lathe. I've got IGF on a twin turret with 5000 control and never have used it other than fooling with it when I first got the lathe (used). IMO it produces rather inefficient programs. Hand coding is so easy I've never considered any sort of lathe cam. You can definitely upload and download programs to and from the 5020 control if you get to the point where you have more programs than can be stored in machine memory. Lathe programs tend to be very short as compared to mill programs.
 
One has a chip conveyor while the other doesn't. No big deal until you find out what a PITA it is to clean out the chip pan on most turning centers. Then it becomes a real big deal.

With either one you'd want to make sure it has sufficient ID toolholders. You'll see where they bolt onto the turret in the pics or video. They can be hard to find in the used market as there are minor differences in them for each different model of Okuma lathe. 'Bout a thousand bucks apiece if you had to buy them from Okuma.

Agree with litlerob re the necessity of IGF on a 2 ax lathe. I've got IGF on a twin turret with 5000 control and never have used it other than fooling with it when I first got the lathe (used). IMO it produces rather inefficient programs. Hand coding is so easy I've never considered any sort of lathe cam. You can definitely upload and download programs to and from the 5020 control if you get to the point where you have more programs than can be stored in machine memory. Lathe programs tend to be very short as compared to mill programs.


I agree, chip conveyor would almost be a necessity.

Thanks for the note about the toolholders, I wouldn't have thought them to be so expensive!
 
If you have a mill though ID holders are almost always easy and fast to make, there very simple things.
 
If you have a mill though ID holders are almost always easy and fast to make, there very simple things.

I do, so good point.

I'm leaning more towards an Okuma or Mazak at this point, just from a parts/cost availability standpoint. I'm not overly concerned with service as I'm sure they are charging way more than I'd be willing to pay. As long as there is good documentation available (which I'm sure both have), I can more than likely figure out any problems that arise. That and the knowledge here seems to be really good on both, so at least there is some technical resource to tap.
 
Updated List:

(2002) Okuma ES-L8 (2500 hours) -- OSP-10UL
(1999) Romi G-20 -- Fanuc 21iT
(2000) Hwacheon Hi-ECO 10 -- Fanuc 0TC
(1994) Okuma Cadet LNC-8 -- OSP 5020L
(1993) Mazak SQT-15M -- Mazatrol T32-3
(1991) Mazak QT-15N -- Mazatrol CAM T-2

I'm realizing that a CNC machine without a tool changer is sort of contradictory, so I eliminated the prototraks.

I also removed the machines with Yasnac controls as I've read they are pretty hard to find replacement parts for.
 
Prototrak
Prototrak
Prototrak

You will not be dissapointed

I like that the machines have a larger working envelope in the Z-axis. I'd prefer one with a turret so I'm not changing tools out all the time, but then again CNC is better than no CNC.

I doubt I'd ever run over 20 parts at at go. Most of the work I do is onesy twosey.
 








 
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