Help, please: Siemens 840D lathe twin turret and spindle

ricardo_gt · Mar 20, 2018

Hi lads,
My boss brought in a Gildemeister lathe from 1998, with double turret and double spindle. It brings siemens 840D control. I had never worked on siemens before, so i have spent a lot of time readind the machine manuals, i have gettered to put it work and i am using 1000 program on channel 1 and 2000 program on channel 2, so i can machine a part at the left side spindle (S4) using the down turret tools (2), get the part with the right spindle (S3) and machine it with the top turret(1)tools. However, i can not figure how to make the two turrets work at the same time on the same spindle, i mean, if i want the number one turret to machine OD and number two turret machine at the same time ID, part being machined on S$ spindle... how can it be done? Thank you!
Best regards!

Ox · Mar 20, 2018

[having never ran a Siemens lathe]

What exactly is it "not" dooing?

I am just guessing that you are trying to feed in IPR and Turret 2 isn't moving?

This would be b/c T2 is looking at S2 (?) for rev feedback.
You would need to either feed in IPM or find the M code that tells T2 to switch to feedback from spindle 1. (it should be there)

If you are having some other issues, you'll hafta git a bit more alaborate in your situation.

--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

Let me see if i can explain it better:
This lathe have two turrets, i need them both machining at the same time at the spindles.
I have no experience with this machine control, wich is siemens 840D, so, i need someone who understand siemens control to heighligth me how do i program to have both turrets machining at the same time on the same spindle...

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

A friend told me to use WAIT comand, but did not know how to... machine manuals are even worse than fanuc ones...were can i found program example for turning with siemens?
Thank you.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

Not much help on these forums for Siemens of any nature, and thus twin turrets will be even less likely to find someone that knows your machine in particular.

So - again - let me ask you - what have you tried, and exactly what is it NOT dooing?

I take it that you are currently able to run T2 on S2 (sub anyhow)?
But you are having troubles running T2 on S1 - right?

Doo you have a G and M code lists?
If so - can you scan and post?

Can you post the code that you are trying to run?
Is this G code?

-----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

ricardo_gt said:
A friend told me to use WAIT comand, but did not know how to... machine manuals are even worse than fanuc ones...were can i found program example for turning with siemens?
Thank you.

You snuck this one in on me...

OK - so it is the WAIT codes that are troubling you?
You apparently understand what they are and how they work, so .....
Your manual doesn't list what codes to use?

---------------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

Ox said:
You snuck this one in on me...

OK - so it is the WAIT codes that are troubling you?
You apparently understand what they are and how they work, so .....
Your manual doesn't list what codes to use?

---------------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I have no idea what a wait code is... The basic codes from the manual, ISO and siemens, the easy ones, i read the manual and i understand them... but, siemens have a lot of macro calls and comands that i do not understand and are not explained on the manual.
As an example, i have this program:
WAIT(20,WAIT_K1, WAIT_K2); what are these? What do they do?
L1001
L1002
L1003; It is a call to suprograms, that i understand
M30

If i open sub program 1001 i have:

G509; Zero part offset?
G26 S3=3000
G26 S4=3000
L710(1), Were is sub 710?! What does (1) means or do?
T1 D1; Tool and compensator
TC(0,0,9); no idea...
STOPRE; no idea...
...
M17; end of sub routine

So, were can i find a manual about siemens programing? I have donloaded 3 from google and readed machine program manual, no one explain the sub routines or special call comands... i just need one that can put both turrets working at the same time.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

Example on Fanuc:

In this example, the wait codes are the M300 through 306 codes.
Once either path reaches a wait code, it will stop there until it sees the same code from the other path.

I know that Mazak employs a "flag" code on their Hyperquadrex as well (and likely other models, and maybe other Mits machines as well - I don't know...) but that code will set a flag, and keep going, thus telling the other path that "Yes, it is clear now" but the first path doesn't have to wait for the second path to catch up.

I don't know if your machine/control would have this type code or not? Mine don't, but I wanted to let you know about it in case yours does have it - and need to understand the difference between them. Not trying to confuse the issue, just don't know if you need to know it or not.

This is much easier to look at in Notepad++ (notebook++?) I need to get it loaded on this new tower myself too....
In that - you can open two files at the same time and scroll them together. Then you can add in a bunch of spaces to the point that your wait codes line up, and then you can really get your head wrapped around how it will execute.

Path 1

O0236(NCS CHAIN BUSHING D F)
(B687-236)
G97
G98
G20
G10P0X0Z-2.75
G0T0X17.Y1.E28.7
M300
N1T101Z.1(TRIGON)
M3S1500
G0X.8Z0Y0
G1X-.05F5.M8
G0X.59
G1X.675Z-.075
M301
G0T0X17.Y1.S1000
N2T202(TRIANGLE)
G0X.675Z0Y0
G1Z-1.25F10.
G0T0X17.Y1.M8
M302
S400
N2T1212(5/16 MILL)
M303
M5
M23
M51S6000
X.585Z-.034Y-.4C0
G1Y.4F20.M8
G0X.583Z-1.096
G1Y-.4
G0X.585Z-.034C180.
G1Y.4
G0X.583Z-1.096
G1Y-.4
M8
M24
G0T0X17.Y1.M55
M3S1000
M304
T100
M305
Z3.5E14.S100M9
M33S100
G1E11.7F400.
M222
G4X4.
M21
G4X1.
E12.975
M22
G4X1.
M221
G4X1.
M306
G0E28.7M5
M2

Path 2

%
O0236(NCS CHAIN BUSHING D F)
(B687-236)
G97
G98
G20
G10P0X0Z-2.75
G0T0X17.
M300
N1T137Z.1(MAIN C-DRILL)
M301
X0
G1Z-.35F4.M8
G0Z.1M9
T0X17.
N2T1022Z0(.492 REP TIP DRILL)
X0Z.1M72
G1Z-1.F4.M8
G0Z1.M73
Z-.98
G1Z-1.35
G0Z1.
T0X17.M9
M302
N3T125(MAIN CHMFR)
X0Z.1
Z-.15M8
G1Z-.18F3.
G0Z1.M9
T0X17.
N3T921(.500 REAMER)
X0Z.1
G1Z-1.25F10.
G0Z1.
T0X17.M9
M303
N4T1212Z-1.255(CUTOFF)
M304
X.75
G1X.6F2.
G0U.06
W.06M8
G1U-.06W-.06F1.
X.4F2.
M305
G0T0X17.M9
M306
G0Z14.M205
M2

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

ricardo_gt said:
. i just need one that can put both turrets working at the same time.

You haven't answered some of my ?
It is hard to help if you don't answer them.
I don't know where you are at... Where we are starting from ....

So - have you been able to program the second turret yet at all?
Can you post a pic of your CRT?

-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

Does your used machine not have any old programs left in it by the previous owner?

These are always VERY helpfull when getting something new - and especially when getting something abnormally complicated.

---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

carbonbl · Mar 21, 2018

ricardo_gt- are you aware that Siemens publishes multiple different basic and advanced programming manuals? The "advanced" manual may have the info you need. You might also check the multi-part "Description of Functions" manuals (designated FB1, FB2, FB3). Siemens really does make it difficult to learn- when I was debugging a Siemens 5 axis post I had to go through around 4 different manuals to understand the basic principles of something like TRAORI. They're not well written either.

To make it even more annoying, there are multiple editions, where later editions may show commands/capability that prior versions of the 840D do not have, sometimes without any kind of callout as to when the functionality was introduced. So you end up doing lots of trial and error to figure out what applies to your specific control.

I have a bunch of the manuals in pdf form, including programming fundamentals, programming short guide, advanced programming, and cycles as well as FB1, FB2, FB3. Mostly year 2000-2004 editions. PM me with your email if you want them. Many of these manuals are available free online but you have to dig deep for them.

I have no experience on the kind of machine you describe, so I can't help much further than that.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

You keep saying that the Siemens manuals aren't much help, but most programming help that I have gotten is in the manuals from the Machine Tool Builder themselves. Doo you have any Prog or Opp manuals from DMG?

I would not expect the Wait code issue to be spelled out much in a Siemens manual as the MTB likely has a lot of influence on how this all works. (?)

--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

Ox said:
Example on Fanuc:

In this example, the wait codes are the M300 through 306 codes.
Once either path reaches a wait code, it will stop there until it sees the same code from the other path.

I know that Mazak employs a "flag" code on their Hyperquadrex as well (and likely other models, and maybe other Mits machines as well - I don't know...) but that code will set a flag, and keep going, thus telling the other path that "Yes, it is clear now" but the first path doesn't have to wait for the second path to catch up.

I don't know if your machine/control would have this type code or not? Mine don't, but I wanted to let you know about it in case yours does have it - and need to understand the difference between them. Not trying to confuse the issue, just don't know if you need to know it or not.

This is much easier to look at in Notepad++ (notebook++?) I need to get it loaded on this new tower myself too....
In that - you can open two files at the same time and scroll them together. Then you can add in a bunch of spaces to the point that your wait codes line up, and then you can really get your head wrapped around how it will execute.

Path 1

O0236(NCS CHAIN BUSHING D F)
(B687-236)
G97
G98
G20
G10P0X0Z-2.75
G0T0X17.Y1.E28.7
M300
N1T101Z.1(TRIGON)
M3S1500
G0X.8Z0Y0
G1X-.05F5.M8
G0X.59
G1X.675Z-.075
M301
G0T0X17.Y1.S1000
N2T202(TRIANGLE)
G0X.675Z0Y0
G1Z-1.25F10.
G0T0X17.Y1.M8
M302
S400
N2T1212(5/16 MILL)
M303
M5
M23
M51S6000
X.585Z-.034Y-.4C0
G1Y.4F20.M8
G0X.583Z-1.096
G1Y-.4
G0X.585Z-.034C180.
G1Y.4
G0X.583Z-1.096
G1Y-.4
M8
M24
G0T0X17.Y1.M55
M3S1000
M304
T100
M305
Z3.5E14.S100M9
M33S100
G1E11.7F400.
M222
G4X4.
M21
G4X1.
E12.975
M22
G4X1.
M221
G4X1.
M306
G0E28.7M5
M2

Path 2

%
O0236(NCS CHAIN BUSHING D F)
(B687-236)
G97
G98
G20
G10P0X0Z-2.75
G0T0X17.
M300
N1T137Z.1(MAIN C-DRILL)
M301
X0
G1Z-.35F4.M8
G0Z.1M9
T0X17.
N2T1022Z0(.492 REP TIP DRILL)
X0Z.1M72
G1Z-1.F4.M8
G0Z1.M73
Z-.98
G1Z-1.35
G0Z1.
T0X17.M9
M302
N3T125(MAIN CHMFR)
X0Z.1
Z-.15M8
G1Z-.18F3.
G0Z1.M9
T0X17.
N3T921(.500 REAMER)
X0Z.1
G1Z-1.25F10.
G0Z1.
T0X17.M9
M303
N4T1212Z-1.255(CUTOFF)
M304
X.75
G1X.6F2.
G0U.06
W.06M8
G1U-.06W-.06F1.
X.4F2.
M305
G0T0X17.M9
M306
G0Z14.M205
M2

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Thank you, it have the configuration as it should be, now i need to learn that on siemens... i am searching on the web one by one the codes as i find a siemens one.
The previous owner did not left any program in it, i have made the machine work reading manual examples.
I have the machine working but i am using the upper turret first, after the tool of turret finish machining, turret go to "G28" position and the down turret goes to work. I have a part that only make profit if the machine can machine it on 46seconds, now it is taking 1m:17s, that is the reason i need both turrets machining at the same time. Feeds and speeds are already crazy values, 600m/min on stainless is no good for tools but i need fast production.

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

carbonbl said:
ricardo_gt- are you aware that Siemens publishes multiple different basic and advanced programming manuals? The "advanced" manual may have the info you need. You might also check the multi-part "Description of Functions" manuals (designated FB1, FB2, FB3). Siemens really does make it difficult to learn- when I was debugging a Siemens 5 axis post I had to go through around 4 different manuals to understand the basic principles of something like TRAORI. They're not well written either.

To make it even more annoying, there are multiple editions, where later editions may show commands/capability that prior versions of the 840D do not have, sometimes without any kind of callout as to when the functionality was introduced. So you end up doing lots of trial and error to figure out what applies to your specific control.

I have a bunch of the manuals in pdf form, including programming fundamentals, programming short guide, advanced programming, and cycles as well as FB1, FB2, FB3. Mostly year 2000-2004 editions. PM me with your email if you want them. Many of these manuals are available free online but you have to dig deep for them.

I have no experience on the kind of machine you describe, so I can't help much further than that.

P.M.
Thank you.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

ricardo_gt said:
Hi lads,
My boss brought in a Gildemeister lathe from 1998, with double turret and double spindle. It brings siemens 840D control. I had never worked on siemens before, so i have spent a lot of time readind the machine manuals, i have gettered to put it work and i am using 1000 program on channel 1 and 2000 program on channel 2, so i can machine a part at the left side spindle (S4) using the down turret tools (2), get the part with the right spindle (S3) and machine it with the top turret(1)tools. However, i can not figure how to make the two turrets work at the same time on the same spindle, i mean, if i want the number one turret to machine OD and number two turret machine at the same time ID, part being machined on S$ spindle... how can it be done? Thank you!
Best regards!

After re-reading this again - it doesn't sound like you are far from having this under control. Yet I still don't know what you are not able to doo?

Maybe you are having issues with part zero?
I don't know how Siemens (or maybe DMG) does this, but on the Fanuc 2 path that I have - it generally uses a G500 and G501 to load these values. There is certainly some way to load the #1 zero into #2 turret. (again - not knowing what issues you are having)

Also - again - spindle rev "feedback" is required if you are feeding in Feed per Rev. If this is your issue, then you need to find an M or G code (or whatever) to switch this feedback. You can get around this by programming in F/Minute, but you will eventually need to learn how to switch the feedback modes to thread/tap.

Then there is the wait codes.

Is there something else?
Or can be be even slightly less vague as to what you are having troubles dooing?

------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

ricardo_gt said:
Thank you, it have the configuration as it should be, now i need to learn that on siemens... i am searching on the web one by one the codes as i find a siemens one.
The previous owner did not left any program in it, i have made the machine work reading manual examples.
I have the machine working but i am using the upper turret first, after the tool of turret finish machining, turret go to "G28" position and the down turret goes to work. I have a part that only make profit if the machine can machine it on 46seconds, now it is taking 1m:17s, that is the reason i need both turrets machining at the same time. Feeds and speeds are already crazy values, 600m/min on stainless is no good for tools but i need fast production.

Well that answers a few of my questions...

Well then - how does Turret 2 know to wait on Turret 1?

Doo you not have a split screen with 2 programs running concurrently?

-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

Ox said:
After re-reading this again - it doesn't sound like you are far from having this under control. Yet I still don't know what you are not able to doo?

Maybe you are having issues with part zero?
I don't know how Siemens (or maybe DMG) does this, but on the Fanuc 2 path that I have - it generally uses a G500 and G501 to load these values. There is certainly some way to load the #1 zero into #2 turret. (again - not knowing what issues you are having)

Also - again - spindle rev "feedback" is required if you are feeding in Feed per Rev. If this is your issue, then you need to find an M or G code (or whatever) to switch this feedback. You can get around this by programming in F/Minute, but you will eventually need to learn how to switch the feedback modes to thread/tap.

Then there is the wait codes.

Is there something else?
Or can be be even slightly less vague as to what you are having troubles dooing?

------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ok, so, i have on the program and sub programs i am using the basic infos for machining the part:
1000 program call channel 1( upper turret), G54(rigth spindle),G55(left spindle), rpms and limit rpms. Also have the WAITs because they were at one example on the programing manual and without them it poped an alarm, even me not knowing what they do...
2000 program call channel 2, lower turret, G54 and G55 from channel 2, they are different from channel one, and i have also calls to sub routines to machine each side of part, outside,inside, back, front.
My problem is not having a code or a way to make 1000 and 2000 program being executed at the same time. The previous owner told me it is impossible to do so... only one channel can be active at the time...so, it impossible to work with both turrests at same time? No, i know it because i saw 3 videos on youtube doing it, so it is possible on that machine and with siemens 840D cintrol, i just do not know how.
I will be very happy when i figure it out! lol Someone will help me because i have no idea how to do it by myself.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

OK ... we're getting it nailed down.
Whether I can help you or not I don't know, but let's see...

Since you are running both now - but not both at same time - but yet you can run them sequentially...

How does the 2nd T know to start as it is now?
Doo you need to manually toggle a switch halfway through the job?

I am sure that they can both run together for sure!

If it does it by it-self, then it just sounds like you have your wait codes out of time or ???
Or maybe the WRONG wait codes? Maybe you need to use slightly different wait codes to make this work?

Doo you have values in your code that you doo not understand yet?
You obviously didn't know what the one code was - but you found that you needed it. Maybe there is more?

Anyone running an Index lathe should be able to help out I would think?

Have you put a call into DMG yet?
Or maybe just the DMG rep in your area?
I understand that he may not be overly excited about helping on a used machine?
The factory may be better in this case?

However - the original owner certainly didn't get a good jump start when new, so ???

---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ricardo_gt · Mar 21, 2018

I believe some of the codes i have on it can be managed on different aspects and maybe one of them is what i am looking for, maybe, maybe not. I have received some manuals from CARBONBL (Thank you!)and i saw some different cycles, variables and commands and, in the midle of it, probably is explaining how to use the two channels at same time, i need to read more.
I have them running sequentially as you said. I have tryed to trick them calling a tool from channel 1 on program 2000(channel 2) but it calls the tool from channel 1. I need some code or some sequence of codes or something else to call them both at same time.
On jog mode also is impossible to run both channels, if i want to move both turrets on Z axis, i have to move one, then i have to press the change channels button and move the other turret. At automatic mode, the button to change channel does not work.
I have a known person from DMG iberica but he as not answered my mail yet and i am not sure if he knowes more than about modern DMGs. Gildemeister from 1998 requires a 20 years experienced tech, not many around here... and they are gold payed...so, i guess i will not have luck with them.

Ox · Mar 21, 2018

Well I wouldn't expect to be able to jog both Z's at the same time anyhow.

Sounds like you have some new reading material to digest for now.
Good luck!

-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Help, please: Siemens 840D lathe twin turret and spindle

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