How deep is it ok to run a carbide drill without coolant through

PegroProX440 · Jun 1, 2017

I picked up quite a few coolant fed carbide drills at an auction but I do not have a coolant through machine. Is there any people using these with flush coolant with success and at what depth. When should I start to peck. Material is tool steel in its soft state and prehard. I also picked up an OSG Helios drill that I cant wait to try for deep waterlines. I will keep you informed on if its all the hype..

deadlykitten · Jun 2, 2017

hy

i guess you are talking about a mill

if there is a coolant pump, you may use something like reCOOL : reCool(R) :: rego-fix.com

consider crafting in-home needed parts

kindly !

gregormarwick · Jun 2, 2017

I use carbide drills with external coolant pretty regularly in one old machine that doesn't have CTS. 3xD in steels seems to be perfectly fine, never needed to go much deeper than that on the parts that we run on that machine. Tool life is measurably lower than when drilling the same hole with through coolant, but there are no immediate ill effects provided you can get a strong flow of coolant directed to the cutting edge.

You should absolutely not peck with flood coolant and carbide drills - wash one chip inside the hole and crunch...

DMF_TomB · Jun 2, 2017

PegroProX440 said:
I picked up quite a few coolant fed carbide drills at an auction but I do not have a coolant through machine. Is there any people using these with flush coolant with success and at what depth. When should I start to peck. Material is tool steel in its soft state and prehard. I also picked up an OSG Helios drill that I cant wait to try for deep waterlines. I will keep you informed on if its all the hype..

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i have seen vibration from pilot hole 4" deep that was .001" smaller in dia and the long drills vibrated in pilot hole and broke easy. just saying if using short pilot make sure its same or bigger than long drills
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pecking with carbide you have to try experiments and see what works for you. most cnc their is a parameter when pecking how far away does rapid stop and feed begins. basically when you peck and drill pulls out often in the hole are chips sticking up where drilling stopped. if it rapids too close and hits those chips sticking up at rapid it can easily damage drill.
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i have adjusted that peck parameter from 0.100 to 0.150"
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hss turbo or parabolic drills are made for deep drilling. flutes have more clearance and allow no peck or less pecking. we use for deep holes as it works better than carbide drills that are too long and break easier
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carbide drill can drill 10x or .50 dia and 5" deep but much longer than that and they can break real easy and are often very expensive and not worth it

yardbird · Jun 2, 2017

I do a lot deep drilling in already hardened tool steel for water lines/perk holes at sometimes 15xD. Just curious what drill your using to drill these deep holes with now? Just my personal opinion but at these depths I don't see carbide drills being a benefit unless you can get coolant down the middle at high pressure? I have nothing to back that up though, just thinking out loud is all.

Brent

deadlykitten · Jun 2, 2017

... about how deep, simply just test : until some point is all ok, chips go out, etc

but after that point, you may hear a crunch sound : chips do not evacuate, but broked or got jamed between flutes and hole

so you know that you have to peck, thus to have the drill clean before that point

so put a peck there, maybe reduce feed from that point, etc ...

DMF_TomB · Jun 2, 2017

obviously got to do your own testing to find peck limits.
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i hear the never peck drill often and yet i peck drill thousands of holes each year without problems. and i use a spot drill hole often by the thousands with no problems either

Orange Vise · Jun 2, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
obviously got to do your own testing to find peck limits.
.
i hear the never peck drill often and yet i peck drill thousands of holes each year without problems. and i use a spot drill hole often by the thousands with no problems either

It is material dependent.

Annealed low carbon and low alloy steels like 10XX and 4XXX steels make gummy, stringy chips that are particularly prone to the issues caused by pecking.

Cast irons in any hardness state don't have the same issues.

DMF_TomB · Jun 2, 2017

Orange Vise said:
It is material dependent.

Annealed low carbon and low alloy steels like 10XX and 4XXX steels make gummy, stringy chips that are particularly prone to the issues caused by pecking.

Cast irons in any hardness state don't have the same issues.

yes obviously i have drilled many many tens of thousands of holes in steel and aluminum that gave long chips wrapping around drill that i had to stop and get off drill bit. i have even created sub program to reverse spindle and try to get coolant to unwrap the chips off the drill or end mill
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sometimes short peck G73 is used just to break those long chips. sometimes long peck G83 works better. i often had to have M0 to check tool and get chips wrapped around it off before tool change as in the tool chain a big ball of chips wrapped around drill can cause problems
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you not going to use extra long carbide drill and peck. at over 30x to 50x length to dia they tend to whip around the drill tip at high rpm when ever out of the hole. unless you slow rpm til its back in the hole then increase rpm. common with long spade drills

deadlykitten · Jun 2, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
yes obviously i have drilled many many tens of thousands of holes in steel and aluminum that gave long chips wrapping around drill that i had to stop and get off drill bit. i have even created sub program to reverse spindle and try to get coolant to unwrap the chips off the drill or end mill
.
sometimes short peck G73 is used just to break those long chips. sometimes long peck G83 works better. i often had to have M0 to check tool and get chips wrapped around it off before tool change as in the tool chain a big ball of chips wrapped around drill can cause problems

hy Tom

i also have a general drling procedure, toghether with read-ahead-buffer-delay, so to deliver custom behavior instanteneously, on request

if a lot of holes, and chips go arround the tool, but random, than you can not control this from code ... because is not a constant

so with the push of a button, machine Z raises up + M0, so the operator can clean it

such behaviours dont normal occur inside the code, but only when desired

kindly !

Whysosharp · Jun 2, 2017

In aluminum with a 3fl carb drill I was able to get 4xD with a .242dr prob could've gone alittle deeper the drill didn't seem to care at all that was 1000 holes later without CTS oops missed the part about tool steel

TeachMePlease · Jun 3, 2017

Orange Vise said:
It is material dependent.

Annealed low carbon and low alloy steels like 10XX and 4XXX steels make gummy, stringy chips that are particularly prone to the issues caused by pecking.

Cast irons in any hardness state don't have the same issues.

I'm impressed that you replied to Tom...
I know you're knowledgeable, way beyond what I know...
But most of us just ignore Tom's way out there posts...

Not saying Tom doesn't know what he's doing, because he works with things I can't imagine, every day... but in general, his posts are irrelevant to the original post, and he likes to point out that he'll make $60K as an operator this year...

deadlykitten · Jun 3, 2017

TeachMePlease said:
Not saying Tom doesn't know what he's doing, because he works with things I can't imagine, every day

hy

nice hair

Tom is not from an alien planet, crafting alien stuff for a spaceship

TeachMePlease said:
but in general, his posts are irrelevant to the original post

this is the way he is ... i met such persons : if you ask for help, for a single drop of water, they respond with knowledge to fill up 10 glasses : thus he responds with his best, also at questions to come ... he responds a lot of steps ahead

some kind of machinists do that

others reply only a few steps ahead, and if there is interest, than they develop ; others are short talking / etc

extra-information may seem useless, but there may be a point when it resonates in your head : i guess i heared that before

TeachMePlease said:
he likes to point out that he'll make $60K as an operator this year.

good to him

deadlykitten · Jun 3, 2017

deadlykitten said:
... about how deep, simply just test : until some point is all ok, chips go out, etc

but after that point, you may hear a crunch sound : chips do not evacuate, but broked or got jamed between flutes and hole

so you know that you have to peck, thus to have the drill clean before that point

so put a peck there, maybe reduce feed from that point, etc ...

also there is chip color and chip elasticity ; for example :

1) you use recomended cutting specs from the tool provider : chip 1
2) tool/machine can take it more : so you push : chip 2 will be more rough
3) you are on a long setup, and you know that you have to lower the cutting specs, to achieve more parts/machining/edge : chip 3 a bit more fragile than chip 1

when drilling deep, chips also change, depending how deep you are

if drilling is long, chips are long and they may stick to the tool; if driling is short, chips are also short, and at some moment they may fall from flutes back in the hole

... and there are nasty material

leave them for tomorow

DMF_TomB · Jun 3, 2017

i make more than that per year easily usually over $75,000
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i usually start drilling with conservative settings and do tests to find limits unfortunately carbide drills often just break with little warning and are expensive
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i have had the type of drill point or how it was sharpened effect drilling. lately i have seen split point sharpening that normally helps cause a lot of vibration until drill has drilled 1/2" or maybe flutes full of chips stops vibration. same hole that broke drill try with a regular point drill with no split point and it works better. not sure why. something to do with the angles of how drill point was sharpened i am guessing. just saying you can find settings that work with a 1000 holes ok and then switch drill with different point sharpening and then have a lot of problems. and i tried different feeds and speeds and it did not stop vibration. kind of annoying finding what worked ok with 1000 holes suddenly give multiple drill breaking problems just cause using a different drill bit

DMF_TomB · Jun 3, 2017

sometimes answer is not a simple thing. often requires controlling many factors that each can effect things
.
many things are not simple to answer

Guest · Jun 3, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
i make more than that per year easily usually over $75,000
.

Why are you consistently mentioning how much money you make? Especially when it is irrelevant to the discussion?

DMF_TomB · Jun 3, 2017

Dualkit said:
Why are you consistently mentioning how much money you make? Especially when it is irrelevant to the discussion?

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only cause somebody else incorrectly mentioned what i make. otherwise i would not say anything. usually i only mention salary when i hear how operators are not real machinist discussion but button pushers with 5 minutes training. yes i will consistently mention salary when i consistently hear the operators not real machinist discussion.

deadlykitten · Jun 3, 2017

i make more than that per year easily usually over $75,000

hy Tom

that si your annual salary / earning ? or the value of your production/parts/work ?

unfortunately carbide drills often just break with little warning

if there is a lot of noise arround / unique production, than is harder to sense the tools

if there is a series setup and you can here the machine pretty well, than you may hear things more easy

... and are expensive

if i may : well, if that is your salary, you may consider buying a few extra drills

sorry

try with a regular point drill with no split point and it works better. not sure why. something to do with the angles of how drill point was sharpened i am guessing.

sharpening : rugozity, force used and simetry matter

also combine this with the rigidity of the tool

if the guys rushed, than drill twisted body may have tension, and if the nose is not sharpened ok, this will lead to a faster tool failure

at some point, some producers may reduce the quality of their tools ... it may happen ; kindly !

Speedie · Jun 3, 2017

I have taken very small, very long drills and pecked my way to china. It all depends on you as an operator not letting those flutes get overloaded. And forget about a precision hole when your flooding a deep drilling operation. Those vertical rapids are going to destroy the walls a little in most materials.

How deep is it ok to run a carbide drill without coolant through

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