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How is the Tormach for a home system?

Looks to be a good home machine. I don't like the 300 rpm minimun speed. Too fast.

I don't like PC based controllers either. God help you if it uses windows.
 
It runs under Mach3.

Whats wrong with a PC based Controller?

A lot of machines use x86 Based controllers its just they either roll their own OS or cover up windows. I have seen plasma tables from C&G and Hypertherm both running under XP and they have proven themselves. And plamsa cutting is a way noisier environment electrically speaking.
 
The problem with PC based controls is the rate at which the technology changes. PC parts that are cheap and easy to find today may be next to impossible to find 6 or 7 years from now. I know this to be fact as I have three PC based control machines (EZPath and Acramatic 2100). Also, standard PC hardware is certainly not built to the same standards that say Fanuc hardware is.

Something like Mach3 is a little different because of what it is. It must use the PC's parallel or serial port for pulse output to a step/direction type drive. Therefore, most any computer will probably work (versus most industrial PC based controls that use a motion control card for servo control). When I last checked out their website I think it said the software is capable of 45Khz max pulse output. This is a pretty big limitation for anything but low end use. A servo with only a 1000 line encoder produces 4000 counts per rev in quadrature - so 45000/4000=11.25 revolutions per second, or 675 max RPM. I'm also not sure if/how it handles following error, etc. Don't get me wrong, for a couple hundred bucks it looks fantastic - just don't confuse it as a substitute for a Fanuc, etc. (at least not yet).
 
I think thats where they are intending the Gecko Grex to come in now that parallel ports are probably soon to be on the chopping block. The Grex kicks that 45khz up to just under 4.2mhz and it platform independent.

I myself am hitting that 45khz limit. I get about 150ipm max rapids at .0001 resoultion. As soon as the newest firmware comes out I will upgrade to that.

And following error is a problem in rapids. The interface board that I use deals with it and will shut everything down if it exceeds a limit you set. There are a couple full closed loop systems available but you need to run EMC which has horrible support.

One bad thing about the tormach (IMO) is it uses steppers. I will never build a large machine with steppers.
 
If you intend to manufacture a product for sale commercially then don't toss $8k to $10k away on a desktop mill. I went this route as have others, its a waste of time and money. That's enough for a good downpayment on a new cnc mill or to buy a used cnc mill outright.

My brother bought his Haas VF1 for $12k, ran it for three years and sold it a couple years back for $6k. Ahem, $6k for a larger work cube, faster much heavier duty spindle, full enclosure with flood coolant, and an automatic tool changer. No desktop mill can compare to that.

If you do go the desktop mill route ask them to put the advertised performance in writing with a return guarantee if the machine fails to deliver what was advertised in terms of accuracy, performance, and reliability.
 
The problem with PC based controls is the rate at which the technology changes. PC parts that are cheap and easy to find today may be next to impossible to find 6 or 7 years from now.
That's not even remotely "the problem" with PC based controls...it is "a" problem but "the" problem is, being PC's they are subject to crashing...just like your home computer. And, like your home computer, they take "forever" to boot up.

A Fanuc *never* crashes, and it boots up in less than 10 seconds...some less than 5 seconds.

The other problem with PC based controls is they are often too sensitive from a hardware standpoint for the dirt, heat and vibration of a shop envirnoment. Power supplies and motherboards tend to crap out sooner than normal...that sort of thing.
 
As an owner of a Tormach - and using it for production (albeit on a limited scale) I have to respectfully disagree with most of the views posted above.

First, PC controls are very easy to change out - the Tormach uses a Gecko knockoff (lots of controversy over that on the 'other' CNC forum) and would be a cinch to replace with either Geckos or Centents should the need arise.

As for software, I think Mach sucks - it looks like some dyslexic color blind moron designed it. However Tormach only support Mach for warranty work. I use Turbo CNC - mainly because it's DOS based so no Windoze timing problems and it has Macros/parameterized scripting which allows me to change parameters at run time if need be.

The out of the box speed on the Tormach is set to 65 IPM rapids and after experimenting a bit I would say this is a good max speed for this machine - maybe a bit faster but then you will very occasionally lose steps.

From a workmanship/customer support standpoint I have been reasonably satisfied with my purchase - it does what they say it does. I had a problem with the VFD on mine as well a host of niggling other issues, but I don't regret spending the money.

As for the idea of buying a used 'bigger' mill I have to say this idea certainly didn't work for me. I don't know where the hell a person could find a VF Haas for 12 grand - I certainly haven't seen anything worth buying used for under 18-20 grand. And in fact I DID go this route before buying my Tormach and it was an absolute DISASTER. Quite a few people warned me about buying old used iron - what a constant headache it is and they were completely right. No the Tormach does not have the capabilities of a bigger machine, but when I go out in my shop and turn on the power every day - it works. And if anything were to go wrong, I know I could find parts to fix it pretty easily. Another thing that made my decision was the fact that even if I use this machine for a year and move up to something bigger and new (which is my plan) I know I could unload this thing on EBay for about 5 grand pretty easy. I went the used route, and I would NEVER do it again. Better a less capable machine that is more reliable for me - YMMV

As for how it functions in production work, I think that depends quite a bit on what you are making and how much it sells for. My experience as a newbie in this business is that most of your time in a new business is that a lot more time is taken up with programming and setups and debugging and protype work than actually metal cutting. For example, I am working on a product now that took me a week to protoype, now it takes me about a day to produce, and I am pretty sure that if I spent the money on better cutters, and fixtures and optimized my CNC code I could get it down to about an hour per piece. Almost none of this is dependent on the Tormach, it's a lot more dependent on my tooling choices, my setups, and my programming ability.

I don't think the Tormach is a great machine, but I do think it is a good one, and it fills a completely empty niche - small, new, CNC (non-knee) mills between 6 and 10k. I looked for a looong time and never found anything else that competes with it in that range.

Anyways, that's my long version opinion, anyone has any particular questions I'll be happy to give my opinion - for what it's worth.
 
As an owner of a Tormach - and using it for production (albeit on a limited scale)
Depends on your definition of production. With no automatic tool changer, 65ipm rapids, stepper motors and a 1.5hp R8 spindle I'm pretty sure your idea of production would be different from mine. My desktop mill had 120ipm rapids, a 2hp geared head spindle, and servo motors and it was laughable to compare that to a real VMC. I'm not trying to be harsh, I have just been down this road of desktop mill marketing BS before. I was once as confident in my desktop purchase as you seem to be today.

would be a cinch to replace with either Geckos or Centents should the need arise.
You are assuming either company will be around when you need replacements. Last I read the Geckos guy was talking about folding up his shop and retiring to a beach since someone was supposedly pirating his designs. And how long as this Centents been in business? The company that made my desktop mill has already closed shop.

I use Turbo CNC - mainly because it's DOS based
PC hardware is prone to crash and failure DOS or or not. Its not built to industrial standards for harsh environments in terms of vibration and EMI from electrical motors. My desktop mill went through three PC's, the first crashed several times a day so I went with higher end Intel motherboards and while those crashed less frequently it fried two of them in a little over 2 years. Which brings us back to production in a commercial enterprise. You just can't have that frequency of failure and the associated wasted time, scrapped tooling and stock.

- maybe a bit faster but then you will very occasionally lose steps.
Lost steps is no small issue as the error is cumulative and for long running parts a disaster in terms of accuracy and finish.

I don't know where the hell a person could find a VF Haas for 12 grand
By brother bought it at an auction.

And in fact I DID go this route before buying my Tormach and it was an absolute DISASTER.
That's certainly a possibility but its also possible to buy a perfectly capable used machine for a good price if you know what you are doing, my brother did. I don't suggest that one will find some miracle deal on a VF3 or something. The VF1 he bought was quite old but in very good shape.

I personally wouldn't know a good used cnc machine from a pile of scrap parts so I would need assistance if buying used.

I would point out that one can buy a brand new Haas TM-1 cnc mill with a warranty for $22k. The $10k one would drop on a desktop mill equipped similar would make a healthy down payment on a TM-1.

No the Tormach does not have the capabilities of a bigger machine, but when I go out in my shop and turn on the power every day - it works.
Time will tell. You push it to production volume levels and let us know how it holds up. That's when my desktop mill went all to hell.

is that a lot more time is taken up with programming and setups and debugging and protype work than actually metal cutting.
You are buying into the desktop mill marketing hype brother. If your machine is not in the cut making chips its not making money. Listen, the desktop mills feed and rapid at pitifully slow speeds. They lack automatic tool changers. The spindles are slow and the work cubes are small. Yet they can't resist hinting that these desktop mills compare with cnc machines designed for production volume so they say well it doesn't matter because you spend most of your time programming and doing setups. That's just nonsense.

Sure if a customer asked me to make a single widget then yes programming and setup would probably take longer than machining this one off part but those are the type of jobs you avoid. You want to make 100 widgets or 1,000 and use a fixture or multiple vises to make multiple parts per run. There's a reason a Haas VF2ss rapids at 1,400ipm, has a 12,000 rpm spindle and changes tools in 2 seconds.

I don't think the Tormach is a great machine, but I do think it is a good one, and it fills a completely empty niche - small, new, CNC (non-knee) mills between 6 and 10k. I looked for a looong time and never found anything else that competes with it in that range.
The question is how soon will you out grow this machine? Maybe you'll be able to ebay that machine for $5k and maybe you won't. What will you do with all the R8 tooling?

Consider this carefully. I did some math after I had my desktop mill for about 2.5 years. When I added up how much product I could have produced and sold with a real cnc mill, say a Haas VF2 versus my desktop mill I would have made another $30,000 easy. With the $10k I tossed away on my desktop mill I'd nearly own the VF2 outright by now.

If a guy just wants to putter around with cnc machining on a hobby basis, yeah he's not going to drop $40k-$50k on a vmc that doesn't make sense. But if a guy is serious about making product for sale commercially on any meaningful scale then I don't see the logic in going the desktop mill route.

Just my two cents worth.
 
That Grizzly g0499 is a knee mill. Take special note that the Z travel is only 6 inches e.g. the quill is cnc'd not the knee. The TM1 has 16 inches of Z travel. The TM1 would do a better job of containing chips and coolant though both will fling stuff onto the floor without adequate enclosures. On paper the TM1 has a 7.5hp motor but Haas typically quotes HP at 200% peak so take that with a grain of salt. Not sure what Grizzly's HP quote is based on. Grizzly has more Y travel, 5,000 rpm spindle. Question marks for me would be quality and accuracy of the castings. TM1 has a tool changer option and will run on single phase, Grizzly requires 3 phase. If you don't have 3 phase power it can be wicked expensive to bring into your shop and rotary phase converters are not cheap either.

Neither machine should be confused with say a Haas VF1 or a Hurco VM1 though both are serious improvements over a desktop mill.

Grizzly is smoking dope on their g0618, you can buy a Hurco VM1 or a Haas VF1, or any number of other entry level VMC's for about that price.
 
ckeith - I think the thing that comes to mind for me is that different people have different areas of expertise - so for me replacing PC's or steppers ans software is cake for me because I've done it for a long time.

The other thing is that the original post was simply is this good for a home machine and w've gotten a bit off the track towards the business angle. If a person is at this beginning level of business though, I think it's much better to bootstrap oneself up, not going into debt to do so, rather than to plop down a large chunk of cash on a business idea and a bunch of expensive equipment that may end up losing down the road, simply because that wonderful widget you were going to produce turned out not to be so wonderful afterall. I can't count the number of times I read or heard about someone spending a ton of cash buying special equipment for some 'business' idea they were SURE was going to work.

I also look at this from the standpoint that if I can make decent money with such a small machine and small investment in capital, down the road, having a bigger machine will put an awful lot of icing on the profit cake.

Good points all around.
 
I've also got a Tormach mill and have been pretty happy with it so far. I don't have enough time on it or parts made yet to be more definite on the opinion, but the stuff I have made has been accurate to 0.001" or so and the finish has been acceptable or better. For me it was one of the few mills that would give me the work envelope I wanted while still being capable of moving down stairs to a basement shop that is limited to 87" head room.

I've had no problem with the Windows-based Mach2 controller (Mach3 is supposed to be coming in March). The PC has been running for several weeks now with no crashes, even though it is a 3-year old ex-office PC that still has lots of junk loaded on it.

I do think that it is most likely the wrong choice for production unless you define that a lot lighter than most here would. The manual tool changes alone would kill productivity and as was mentioned the rapid speed is pretty low. For a hobby shop (like mine) it is starting to look more and more like a really good tool.

Other options in the same general price range and work envelope would include Industrial Hobbies and I think that Smithy and Grizzly are now selling CNC mills.

Mike
 
I cant see how a PC is prone to fail especially in dos unless there are bugs in the software which happens to all programs. You were frying the motherboard? The industrial rack mount machines I have seen use the same motherboard and cards as any other PC I have seen. And many of these machines running equipment in semiconductor fabs where downtime equals loss of money. There is a higher usage of SBCs but they are made just as any other motherboard.

Even if Gecko disappears there will be someone to replace them. Step/Dir motor controllers have been around and will be around for years. Centent has been around since at least the early eighties, then there is compumotor (Parker), Oriental Motor, and a dozen other companies bigger than Haas that manufacture driers they would pop right in. That is an advantage of a PC based system that generic parts will always be around. Why else would more companies be going away from embedded systems to PC based? Thats less circuitry that needs to be designed. Why reinvent the wheel? I have seen a lot of industrial electronics and it is rarely made any different than consumer electronics.


As for Mach vs TurboCNC, I originally started with TCNC, but the lack of cutter comp is a killer with me. Though I wish Mach had parametric programming, but they have said that will not happen. You do know you can download different screen sets for mach right? Which version were you running? I am running the Latest version of Mach3 and there is only one page that is hard to look at.
 
The HAAS TM1 does not have a tool changer for $22000. It is a $6000 option, and then you need the coolant-pump for $1000. So it is $30K without any tooling or indexer. Buy those, and I could see $40K easy.
 
I also look at this from the standpoint that if I can make decent money with such a small machine and small investment in capital, down the road, having a bigger machine will put an awful lot of icing on the profit cake.
I have been down that path already. That was my big plan when I purchased my desktop mill and my brother was trying to talk sense into me. I figured the desktop mill would fund a bigger mill down the road.

What I found was that you can make a widget on a real cnc machine and make $80 an hour or you can make a widget on a desktop mill and make $10 an hour. Taxes will eat up $4 so you end up spending all your free time working for $6 and hour. Then you start shelving what are otherwise good ideas simply because your tool isn't up to the task.

I tell you what will cure you guys from your desktop mill-itus. You will get an idea and prototype a widget. Everyone says hey thats cool and you sell a few. Then the widget catches on and bang you have 30 or 40 orders for your widget. When you have worked every free hour for a solid month trying to fill the orders with a horse and buggy speed desktop mill trust me you will have a new perspective. And when you start pushing these desktop mills to run 8-12 hours a day and they start breaking down when you promised a customer their stuff would ship tomorrow you will think back on this thread.

Just my two cents worth.
 
I tell you what will cure you guys from your desktop mill-itus. You will get an idea and prototype a widget. Everyone says hey thats cool and you sell a few. Then the widget catches on and bang you have 30 or 40 orders for your widget. When you have worked every free hour for a solid month trying to fill the orders with a horse and buggy speed desktop mill trust me you will have a new perspective. And when you start pushing these desktop mills to run 8-12 hours a day and they start breaking down when you promised a customer their stuff would ship tomorrow you will think back on this thread.
The approach I would have with this sort of thing, and in fact what I did when I manufactured tapping machinery back in the 1990's, would be to have a cheap desktop CNC mill* for prototype parts and then some low volume. But when things really kicked into gear I would simply sub the parts out to a larger shop with production machinery. Then if the "high gear" mode held...then I would buy the full blown CNC and bring them back in house.

=============================

*of course what I actually had back then was a used Maho MH400e CNC mill....which would make this desktop thing seem like a Tonka Toy. But back then CNC desktop mills didn't exist really, and now that they do, I would consider one in that situation.
 
The approach I would have with this sort of thing ... would be to have a cheap desktop CNC mill* for prototype parts and then some low volume. But when things really kicked into gear I would simply sub the parts out to a larger shop with production machinery. Then if the "high gear" mode held...then I would buy the full blown CNC and bring them back in house.
Spending 10K (this is the price range the thread started with) for a desk top machine, and then add the necessary tooling and measuring instruments, etc. to do some prototype work and low volumes doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you are going to turn around and then sub out the gravy (production). Even worse is spending 10K on a new bench top to turn around and change the software or otherwise try to modify it to run better/faster. What does this tell you?

If, on the other hand, you really are a hobbyist, or you're not a very good designer, have zero manufacturing experience, etc., then spending countless hours screwing around making iterations of prototype parts on a machine with stepper motors may not be an issue. In fact it may then make financial sense. I stopped dealing with people like this because they couldn't afford it when I started charging for all their rev changes.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but when people start talking about "missing steps" on a machine, to me this makes the machine totally unreliable for most uses. Whether it is a new machine or not.
 
doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you are going to turn around and then sub out the gravy (production)
Ah, but that's where I have a very different perspective in that the "gravy" for me was actually the whole machine that the parts made up. The subbed out parts were a relativlely small portion of the total cost.

Also I was assuming this Tormach thing only cost around 8K total. Once one gets into the 10K plus range I would definitely think in terms of used proper CNC..but then that's me cuz I deal in such things and know how to spot the good ones and fix the bad ones.
 
The approach I would have with this sort of thing, and in fact what I did when I manufactured tapping machinery back in the 1990's, would be to have a cheap desktop CNC mill* for prototype parts and then some low volume. But when things really kicked into gear I would simply sub the parts out to a larger shop with production machinery. Then if the "high gear" mode held...then I would buy the full blown CNC and bring them back in house.
That's exactly what I did, except I bought a $50K used Cincinnati VMC because I needed 24" of Y travel for my 'prototypes'. All the volume went out to other shops, until delivery and quality issues forced me to buy another identical machine so I could run production in house and still be able to make prototypes without tearing down a setup. We've considered a knee mill since then, but decided against it, preferring the capability of the VMCs even for one offs.
 








 
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