I've learned my lesson....

slowtwitch · Jun 1, 2017

Hello Folks, I finally got my Fadal 3016 running (on single phase) and couldn't be happier. What a difference it is jumping up from a hobby type mill to an industrial machine. Simply amazing !!!!

Let me backtrack a bit and bring things up to date. I purchased the Fadal in January. I have since replaced the X ballscrew ( it had over .004 backlash), replaced all the thrust bearings and seals, on all the axis. The machine now has a backlash of ,0002 on X, .0003 on Y and .0000 on Z. Then it took me a bit to get my head around the 88HS control, the Renishaw probe setup and to workout the rs232 stuff.

But, all that is behind me.... Last weekend, I finally made my first parts. I was happy that the Fadal made them without a hitch. But, I was kind of disappointed at the side finish on the parts. I had my suspicions and they were confirmed after I indicated the runout on my holder. The end mill is a YG .375", for aluminum. The set screw holder was from Shars. The runout I measured was just about 5 thou. Last night, I install the same end mill into a Maritool .375 set screw holder and what a difference !!!! I was measuring under .0005" !!! I'll have to check it with the B/S (.00005")indicator tonight and see what the thing really is. But, I did a test cut and what a difference...The finish was like glass...it nearly brought a tear to this old man's eye...lol.

So lesson learned... buy good holders !!! I'll use the Shars holders (I only have three of them) for rough cuts. But, I'll be replacing them with good holders eventually.

Take care !!!!

pete

DMF_TomB · Jun 1, 2017

slowtwitch said:
Hello Folks, I finally got my Fadal 3016 running (on single phase) and couldn't be happier. What a difference it is jumping up from a hobby type mill to an industrial machine. Simply amazing !!!!

Let me backtrack a bit and bring things up to date. I purchased the Fadal in January. I have since replaced the X ballscrew ( it had over .004 backlash), replaced all the thrust bearings and seals, on all the axis. The machine now has a backlash of ,0002 on X, .0003 on Y and .0000 on Z. Then it took me a bit to get my head around the 88HS control, the Renishaw probe setup and to workout the rs232 stuff.

But, all that is behind me.... Last weekend, I finally made my first parts. I was happy that the Fadal made them without a hitch. But, I was kind of disappointed at the side finish on the parts. I had my suspicions and they were confirmed after I indicated the runout on my holder. The end mill is a YG .375", for aluminum. The set screw holder was from Shars. The runout I measured was just about 5 thou. Last night, I install the same end mill into a Maritool .375 set screw holder and what a difference !!!! I was measuring under .0005" !!! I'll have to check it with the B/S (.00005")indicator tonight and see what the thing really is. But, I did a test cut and what a difference...The finish was like glass...it nearly brought a tear to this old man's eye...lol.

So lesson learned... buy good holders !!! I'll use the Shars holders (I only have three of them) for rough cuts. But, I'll be replacing them with good holders eventually.

Take care !!!!

pete

.
some set screw holders when over tightened distort the bore and tool gets runout. i have seen this often when set screw tightened with a pipe on end of allen wrench or using a hammer on the allen wrench
.
i have also seen many times a badly sharpened end mill with runout at the flutes and just changing end mill the runout amount changes.
.
i use a optical tool setter so it is easy to see runout of the flutes. if tool holder is real bad i usually send then out for the taper to be reground.

dksoba · Jun 1, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
i use a optical tool setter so it is easy to see runout of the flutes.

Neat. What type of optical tool setter do you use? Can you show a picture?

Monomer · Jun 3, 2017

dksoba said:
Neat. What type of optical tool setter do you use? Can you show a picture?

We use a Zoller at work. It's worth every penny.

The ez set that it replaced was fine for Cat tool holders, but something with a drawbar is better for HSK.

ostie01 · Jun 3, 2017

Do not trash them, just install a small boring bar in the vise and bore the 3/8 hole to 1/2, you'll have no runout.

Jeff

Monomer · Jun 3, 2017

ostie01 said:
Do not trash them, just install a small boring bar in the vise and bore the 3/8 hole to 1/2, you'll have no runout.

Jeff

I thought most EM holders were ground egg-shaped to deform a bit when clamped?

jrmach · Jun 3, 2017

YG EM for finish cut on aluminum are awesome

slowtwitch · Jun 3, 2017

ostie01 said:
Do not trash them, just install a small boring bar in the vise and bore the 3/8 hole to 1/2, you'll have no runout.

Jeff

Great idea !!!! I'll give it a try... Thank you !!!!

Ox · Jun 3, 2017

ostie01 said:
Do not trash them, just install a small boring bar in the vise and bore the 3/8 hole to 1/2, you'll have no runout.

Jeff

But then your holder is thinner than it should be for the new app, and your set screw is undersize. [to fit the Weldon flat properly]

???

--------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

dksoba · Jun 3, 2017

Monomer said:
We use a Zoller at work. It's worth every penny.

The ez set that it replaced was fine for Cat tool holders, but something with a drawbar is better for HSK.

For some reason I was think the optical tool setter was IN the machine. Makes more sense now.

ewlsey · Jun 3, 2017

ostie01 said:
Do not trash them, just install a small boring bar in the vise and bore the 3/8 hole to 1/2, you'll have no runout.

Jeff

Shouldn't he be sending them back to Shars for immediate destruction, and they return his US currency?

scadvice · Jun 3, 2017

Shars ” balanced high rpm” holders were pretty good about 5 years back. We bought about a dozen of them. All tested better than .0005 in the spindle. We never bought the standard so maybe that is the difference.

In any case, If I got a holder like your describing I'd send it back for a refund or replacement.

I do recall buying some items from them that were just plain junk. I called them on one item, I think it was a indicator quill clamp. So they sent me a replacement for free…just like the first one…I tossed them both in trash.

R8 ER-16 holders wife bought me some for the home shop… BAD…
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...s-have-problems-shars-279687/?highlight=Shars

I got in the habit of sending them a PO with “Any items defective or out of industry standard tolerance will be returned at sellers expense” written on it. Didn’t work all the time and wasn’t worth the effort fighting them about it.

I think you just got to know what to pick and choose of their stuff.

A long time back on PM I started a thread on Shars tooling what was good and what was bad. Maybe it needs to be resurrected. (Edit: The thread was not PM it was the "other site". However, there are 28 post here on Shars tooling.)

DMF_TomB · Jun 3, 2017

dksoba said:
Neat. What type of optical tool setter do you use? Can you show a picture?

.
Parlec tool setter has a screen that magnifies tool like 20x as shown the drill bit just sharpened they did not sharpen enough.
.
quite often see runout and edge problems you would ordinarily not see. i often see end mills sharpened with increased runout where a new end mill will show usually less than .001"
.
my guess is the resharpening people dont check they got tool in collet centered or compare one edge to another after tightening before sharpening
.
also when i put tool in taper holder i tap the tool side to side looking for movement if tool holder taper messed up it wont lock in spindle securely. if retention knob is over tightened it often swells or makes that end of taper bigger. i often see side to side .005" movement on old well used tool holders

dksoba · Jun 3, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
.
Parlec tool setter has a screen that magnifies tool like 20x as shown the drill bit just sharpened they did not sharpen enough.
.
quite often see runout and edge problems you would ordinarily not see. i often see end mills sharpened with increased runout where a new end mill will show usually less than .001"
.
my guess is the resharpening people dont check they got tool in collet centered or compare one edge to another after tightening before sharpening
.
also when i put tool in taper holder i tap the tool side to side looking for movement if tool holder taper messed up it wont lock in spindle securely. if retention knob is over tightened it often swells or makes that end of taper bigger. i often see side to side .005" movement on old well used tool holders

I want that in my lathe, similar to what Nick Mueller did: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/metrology/diy-optical-tool-setter-my-lathe-209307/

Speedie · Jun 3, 2017

Do not run a .0000 backlash...put in 1 (.0001) or your motor will hunt until it overheats and starts throwing motor overload errors. Fadal with .0000 backlash...that is a dream never dreampt.

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