Junk floors... Best way to keep machines that are in close proximity from vibrating e

super95awd · Aug 25, 2015

My current shop has 6" thick floors and very few ways to arrange equipment. My two Okuma mills are corner to corner and I pretty much can't run them at the same time without compromising surface finishes. I can turn the rapids way down and feeds way down to somewhat mitigate the issue, but that's not going to work. Has anyone run into this issue and what did you do to solve it aside from pouring dedicated foundations under the machines?

Thanks for any info!

thermite · Aug 25, 2015

super95awd said:
My current shop has 6" thick floors and very few ways to arrange equipment. My two Okuma mills are corner to corner and I pretty much can't run them at the same time without compromising surface finishes. I can turn the rapids way down and feeds way down to somewhat mitigate the issue, but that's not going to work. Has anyone run into this issue and what did you do to solve it aside from pouring dedicated foundations under the machines?

Thanks for any info!

Dedicated floor reinforcement might even make the problem WORSE. Cheap-shot answer is to MOVE one of them further away from the other.

If that seems impractical, just compare it to the cost of hanging one of 'em off a dirigible on bungee cords.

Not a lot of 'free lunch' there. Thick or thin, even concrete ultimately rests on the Earth.

Bill

super95awd · Aug 25, 2015

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I'm not so sure moving one of them will work in the current space. I only have about 1,700sqft of floor space and this is about the only way I've figured out how to lay it out. I might have to get more creative with arrangement.

Street · Aug 25, 2015

The floor may be suspended as the soil could have consolidated under a part,
I believe there was a company doing grout injection to fill the voids. So most likely drill a hole in the slab and pump it in.
May work may not suck and see as the saying goes.
Can't beat a thick slab on properly compacted soil.

thermite · Aug 25, 2015

super95awd said:
Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I'm not so sure moving one of them will work in the current space. I only have about 1,700sqft of floor space and this is about the only way I've figured out how to lay it out. I might have to get more creative with arrangement.

Folks have been known to put large cork blocks down into wells in the floor (old days - steam turbines, even) or modern elastomers underneath / between steel plates... - but it take$ a lot of $pend to get a large enough bearing area to properly support the machines.

More than just a few hockey-pucks under leveling screws are wanted when the whole damned floor is transferring vibration to the next machine.

You running three shifts already? Separating them in time if not distance is the fastest thing you can do.

Bill

SeymourDumore · Aug 25, 2015

You may try isolation pads.

I have a 45 ton and a 50 ton stamping press that I've installed 1" thick isolation pads under.
The vibration issue was cut by an order of magnitude.

I've used the 900F series from Airloc, which is designed for high dynamic forces.
This stuff is thick and stiff, the one I have is the 927F type with profile on both sides, but the one you may want is the 925F type with smooth
sides.

The thing ain't cheap, somewhere in the 'hood of $500/1/2 sqm, but it does work.
Grainger ( yeah, I know ... ) can get them in a couple of days.
The part# for a 1000mm x 500mm 925F series is 3.09250.70F

You can cut them into the shape you want, the static load range is 110-435 psi.

There are also "softer" versions with different dampening properties, but I am not sure how they'd hold up after you've leveled the mills....

Anti vibration pads - AirLoc

super95awd · Aug 25, 2015

SeymourDumore said:
You may try isolation pads.

I have a 45 ton and a 50 ton stamping press that I've installed 1" thick isolation pads under.
The vibration issue was cut by an order of magnitude.

I've used the 900F series from Airloc, which is designed for high dynamic forces.
This stuff is thick and stiff, the one I have is the 927F type with profile on both sides, but the one you may want is the 925F type with smooth
sides.

The thing ain't cheap, somewhere in the 'hood of $500/1/2 sqm, but it does work.
Grainger ( yeah, I know ... ) can get them in a couple of days.
The part# for a 1000mm x 500mm 925F series is 3.09250.70F

You can cut them into the shape you want, the static load range is 110-435 psi.

There are also "softer" versions with different dampening properties, but I am not sure how they'd hold up after you've leveled the mills....

Anti vibration pads - AirLoc

That may definitely be something to try. I found some isolation mounts made by a company in India, but I was skeptical. Knowing that they worked for you, having both the machines on them may be the ticket. Thanks for the info! I'll shoot them an email.

thermite · Aug 25, 2015

super95awd said:
That may definitely be something to try. I found some isolation mounts made by a company in India, but I was skeptical. Knowing that they worked for you, having both the machines on them may be the ticket. Thanks for the info! I'll shoot them an email.

Stamping press is a whole different footprint and leveling (or not) exercise than a pair of Okuma are.

Old Day Job had two anechoic chambers. The older of the two had to be used at night for any fine work, after the factory had shut down and road traffic several hundred feet away had abated.

The NEWER one had a stair and non-contact catwalks up to its door because it sat on an array of springs and dampers about two feet tall that had to hold the chamber, plus nine tons of a special sand in its walls. That said, it was early 1950's technology, and many miracle elastomers had yet to hit the market.

The Okumas will PROBABLY want a continuous heavy steel plate atop the resilient material, ELSE rather frequent re-leveling for at least the first year.

Bill

atomarc · Aug 25, 2015

Bill,

Would it be incorrect to assume that management at the "old day job" put your office inside the anechoic chamber! :eek:

Stuart

litlerob1 · Aug 25, 2015

I have seen recently some machinery being both with leveling screws in a steel rocker insert in the pad, also lots of machinery on both leveling screws and fixturing opposing the tightening screws. So call it bolted to the floor and opposing the floor with the screws. But I was thinking if you set the rocker inserts, it may help with out digging up the whole floor.

Salt; if it fails don't blame me, they're just ideas.

Robert my ±2

thermite · Aug 26, 2015

atomarc said:
Bill,

Would it be incorrect to assume ..

"Highly so", given the closest relationship I had with those two those chambers was shedding the VP Engineering who failed to use them - or much of anything else - effectively and picking a better replacement who DID do.

I HAVE swept and waxed floors, changed bed linens, and cleaned terlets, Stuart. Not the least bit ashamed of any of that.

But it WAS before I left enlisted life for greater challenges, even while still in uniform.

Bill

thermite · Aug 26, 2015

litlerob1 said:
I have seen recently some machinery being both with leveling screws in a steel rocker insert in the pad, also lots of machinery on both leveling screws and fixturing opposing the tightening screws. So call it bolted to the floor and opposing the floor with the screws. But I was thinking if you set the rocker inserts, it may help with out digging up the whole floor.

Salt; if it fails don't blame me, they're just ideas.

Robert my ±2

Problem here is that he has 'em both on the same "tectonic plate" of 6" concrete. Concrete should be good enough, but the subgrade UNDER it may not be all that stiff, nor able to damp vibration.

If the premises are owned, not rented, cutting the slab between and inserting an elastomer seal for isolation could help. Each machine could still move its OWN slab, but be coupled to that of its mate only via the subgrade, not the slab.

Which may not be good enough.

Next step would have each of them moved, a section broken out, subgrade dug down, whole Magilla rebuilt stiffer, retaining independence from the rest of the slab even to a fair-decent subgrade depth.

Elimination of vibration at-source or shifting critical ops to second shift could have a more certain outcome for the spend involved - especially if the premises are NOT owned.

I'd chase vibration first, splitting the time-of-day second (this MAY not be a run-forever job anyway..).

Bill

adama · Aug 26, 2015

Several layers of quarry belting a sheet of 2" steel plate on top and sit em on it and you should solve your problem, Just so long as your not short to start with. Generaly does not take much at times like thisto make a big diffrence, all the more so anything that adds mass in a meaningful way.

Bruce Griffing · Aug 26, 2015

I don't know what max spindle speed you have on the machines, but you can reduce the transmitted vibration by increasing the frequency. To accomplish that you would need to use "high speed machining" techniques. Smaller cutters, much higher spindle rpm, small step over, etc. Worth a try if you are not already doing that.

Rstewart · Aug 26, 2015

Bruce Griffing said:
I don't know what max spindle speed you have on the machines, but you can reduce the transmitted vibration by increasing the frequency. To accomplish that you would need to use "high speed machining" techniques. Smaller cutters, much higher spindle rpm, small step over, etc. Worth a try if you are not already doing that.

Pretty sure he's got that covered

thermite · Aug 26, 2015

Rstewart said:
Pretty sure he's got that covered

Maybe not. He spoke only of slowing DOWN speeds and feeds. Going UP is a bit counter-intuitive if acoustics and resonance are not your first language.

Slowzuki · Aug 26, 2015

I had a similar problem with a grinder close to a barfeed lathe. Isolator pads for the lathe and grinder pretty much eliminated all my issues with marks in the finish on the grinder. This is a rented space so I didn't want to cut up the floor so all we did was got some 4" x 4" pieces of belting that was about 1/2" thick and a made up some 4" Ø steel pucks to replace the factory ones. Been working perfectly for 3 years now the only thing is you will need to check level/tram on the machine more often as the can setting into the rubber a bit.

SIM · Aug 26, 2015

Anti vibration mounts for precision leveling - AirLoc

We have a set of the Freestanding Wedgemounts under a machine...
I do not have a reference as to how well they work as they came with the used machine.
Speaking with prior owner, he recommended that I use them as he claimed they did make a difference.

hanermo · Aug 26, 2015

This is an easy one.
I built an anti-vibration pad .. its easy, and not expensive. And you dont need to fix it to a building you dont own.

Base is some type of foam, styrox, etc that can take the whole load.
1-2" thick.
Lay on floor.

Make floating concrete pedestal on top of it.
Ie its not touching anything except the foam.

Concrete thickness on top according to taste.
Aim for 12", imo.
You need mass, relative to the mass of the machine.

Bolt machine to concrete.
Concrete is really cheap.

When you move, the concrete is easily cut or broken, and pieces carried off.
Its really all about getting enough mass, not much more to it.
Because it will be really thick, relatively, you dont need expensive or strong or special concrete.

On a 3x5 m pad == 15 sq m area.
At 1200 kg floor load, ==> 18.000 kg permitted.
A 8000 kg plate, under a 4000 kg machine, will neatly isolate it.
At 150$ / m3, 2.1 density, => 4 cubic metres, 600$. Nothing.
4/15 = 0.26 m thickness => goto 0.35 for == 800$.

Benefits.
Relatively easy.
Relatively cheap.
Nothing permanent.
Wont really rise the machine much, and you can pour a standing pad if you need/want.

Vancbiker · Aug 26, 2015

As mentioned in post #4 grout injection under a poor floor can do wonders. A local company had a row of Okuma horizontals that had to be stopped during finishing operations if a railcar was going to be moved on the siding behind the building. A grouting company came in and drilled a pattern of holes in the floor and pumped in a grout mixture. All the vibration problems were cured. Of course all the machines had to be re-leveled after the process. The outfit used a couple transits to measure the work as it is possible to actually raise the slab by the injecting pressure.

Junk floors... Best way to keep machines that are in close proximity from vibrating e

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