Kiwa KH-45 Good? Bad?

LAWeapons · Feb 24, 2015

I'm looking for some feedback on a Kiwa KH-45 horizontal machine. Has anyone have any good luck with these or have one? How do you like it?

I came up on a deal from a guy who sold his company. The machine is 2013 has 6 pallet, 120 tools,reinshaw probe and laser, 1,000 psi through coolant etc etc. Basically fully loaded. It has 865 cutting hours on the machine. I was total they paid somewhere in the $700k range. The guy wants $250k needs it out since they moved.

What you think?

Vince

dstryr · Feb 24, 2015

LAWeapons said:
I'm looking for some feedback on a Kiwa KH-45 horizontal machine. Has anyone have any good luck with these or have one? How do you like it?

I came up on a deal from a guy who sold his company. The machine is 2013 has 6 pallet, 120 tools,reinshaw probe and laser, 1,000 psi through coolant etc etc. Basically fully loaded. It has 865 cutting hours on the machine. I was total they paid somewhere in the $700k range. The guy wants $250k needs it out since they moved.

What you think?

Vince

They moved but didnt take a $700k asset with them? Seems like they arent telling you something.

ewlsey · Feb 24, 2015

dstryr said:
They moved but didnt take a $700k asset with them? Seems like they arent telling you something.

They bought a $700,000 machine and used it only 8 hours a week? Something doesn't add up.

LAWeapons · Feb 24, 2015

I know the guy personality. He sold his company and the company brought everything but the horizontal. They have it listed for $400k but offer to us for $250k. I think why they pay so much for it was because they did a turn key that toke 9 months to program 2 parts.

LAWeapons · Feb 24, 2015

ewlsey said:
They bought a $700,000 machine and used it only 8 hours a week? Something doesn't add up.

He brought it at the peak of the AR crazy and Selway tool toke so damn long to get the machine running that they lost a lot of there business cause they couldn't keep up with the orders. Needless to say Selway did them dirty. Once they got it running they hardly used it. It sad most of the time. I went today to look it over and it very clean and everything seem to be just fine on it.

If I didn't know the guy personality I would be worried.

bjorn toulouse · Feb 24, 2015

I'd want to know if there is an outstanding balance on a lease or purchase agreement.

If you do get it, are you able to get the machine set up properly?
Who is Selway? Are they the original selling dealer?

Rex

LAWeapons · Feb 24, 2015

bjorn toulouse said:
I'd want to know if there is an outstanding balance on a lease or purchase agreement.

If you do get it, are you able to get the machine set up properly?
Who is Selway? Are they the original selling dealer?

Rex

I ask him that today and I was told he owes $250k which is why he offer it to me.

Selway Tool is a locate dealer who he originally brought it from. Method Machine now has the line and is the dealer and service. I'm gonna call tomorrow to ask how much they would charge to set it up.

Orange Vise · Feb 25, 2015

250 is pretty decent but not the deal of the century, not because there's anything wrong with the machine, but because Kiwa's brand name doesn't command the resale value like the bigger names.

The 700K figure seems awfully high for a 400mm HMC, even with those options. I don't think a similarly equipped Makino A51 setup would even break 600.

nofxz · Feb 25, 2015

do you have the right mix of work to load a pallet pool of that size.. and keep the spindle turning more then 8 hours a week?

JMC · Feb 25, 2015

Orange Vise said:
250 is pretty decent but not the deal of the century, not because there's anything wrong with the machine, but because Kiwa's brand name doesn't command the resale value like the bigger names.

The 700K figure seems awfully high for a 400mm HMC, even with those options. I don't think a similarly equipped Makino A51 setup would even break 600.

The only thing I can think of that would drive the price up to $700k would be that it was/is turn key machine. If all 6 pallets were loaded up with custom fixtures, tooling, ect. Even at that it seems a bit steep.

LAWeapons · Feb 25, 2015

Orange Vise said:
250 is pretty decent but not the deal of the century, not because there's anything wrong with the machine, but because Kiwa's brand name doesn't command the resale value like the bigger names.

The 700K figure seems awfully high for a 400mm HMC, even with those options. I don't think a similarly equipped Makino A51 setup would even break 600.

JMC said:
The only thing I can think of that would drive the price up to $700k would be that it was/is turn key machine. If all 6 pallets were loaded up with custom fixtures, tooling, ect. Even at that it seems a bit steep.

I was quoted back in 2013 for Mori Seiki NHX4000 with 180 tools, 6 pallet, probes,1,000 coolant, etc fully equipped. It was originally priced at $610k but I could of brought it for $475k before tax and shipping. So I agree with you on that it seems high. But it was a turn key package. I was told they charge him around $150k to program 2 parts. Tooling I'm sure was included but I know the fixture wasn't. So that being said that would make the machine $550k normal.

It seems like a good deal and I pick up a new job that I could use this on. Just haven't heard much about the brand is all.

LAWeapons · Feb 25, 2015

I have 2 product line that we could use this to run 8 hours for 3 out of the 5 days no issue. But I did pick up a job that they keep 7 verticals 10 hours 5 days a week busy that we weren't suppose to start till we move in 2 months. So I think this machine could really come in handy for this since there super simple parts anyways. I just unsure of the brand since I don't know much about them and I didn't want to spend the money just yet till we move. But if its a smoking deal were gonna jump on it! It seem like a decent deal since its basically brand new. I don't think I could find a machine this well equipped for sale right now at this price area.

dstryr · Feb 25, 2015

You could prob run that job that takes 7 verticals in like 3 days a week on the horizontal. That would make it a good buy if you had that much work.

dstryr · Feb 25, 2015

I think Seekins had a Kiwa for a bit and wasn't fond of it compared to his matsuura and even more so to his Makinos...

Seekins · Feb 25, 2015

dstryr said:
I think Seekins had a Kiwa for a bit and wasn't fond of it compared to his matsuura and even more so to his Makinos...

Yup, Its way better than a Haas and we made a ton of billet lowers on it, that's all it ran 24/7 for the 6 months we RENTED it. Thank GOD we rented it and didn't buy it. I could have put my rental payments towards purchasing (and they were ALLOT) and didn't. We did not have allot of issues, just quirky and slow compared to others horizontals. Give you an idea, the Matsuuras were 15% faster apples to apples and the Makino is 36% faster than Matsuura with same EXACT program just re-posted for the machine.

700k is way high even new. 250k gets you into a horizontal it might be worth it. ROI would be just dandy at that price if you can reduce setup times and actually run it as intended. Most get a horizontal and don't realize the true value because its not tooled up or ran to its potential.

I haven't shopped used prices in a long time, so cant comment if its a good price or not. Besides, sounds like you have your mind made up, you wont loose anything on it if its in great shape!

Dave Cross · Feb 25, 2015

Seekins said:
Give you an idea, the Matsuuras were 15% faster apples to apples and the Makino is 36% faster than Matsuura with same EXACT program just re-posted for the machine.

You want us to believe that? LOL

Vancbiker · Feb 25, 2015

Dave Cross said:
You want us to believe that? LOL

Where I used to work we went from Matsuura to Makinos and saw a 22% decrease in cycle time with same programs and tooling. Faster toolchange, pallet change, rapids, accel/decel, processing speed. It all adds up. Added bonus was way better reliability.

Dave Cross · Feb 25, 2015

If you optimized the programs I could believe it.

The rapids, accel/decel etc are almost identical on the hplus300 and the A51 he is comparing. He isn't saving over 20min on a 1hr cycle on tool changes.

Joe788 · Feb 25, 2015

Dave Cross said:
If you optimized the programs I could believe it.

The rapids, accel/decel etc are almost identical on the hplus300 and the A51 he is comparing. He isn't saving over 20min on a 1hr cycle on tool changes.

I'm guessing the savings are from BTSOMA and double the horsepower. So it's not really the "same" program. Just the same program but adjusted for the extra HP, and the tool breakage detection time missing.

Seekins · Feb 26, 2015

36% was saved on the one program we have been running on the mattsura since getting the makino's, just re-posted. Not a long program, about 19 min total on mattsura and 12 something on the Makino's....so bout 6min Small tools, so HP was irrelevant, Rapids accel/decel and all that might be the same on paper, but its definitely NOT... then again my Haas says its cutting at 300 ipm 100% of the time when its not. tool breakage was definitely some, that's free time in the Makino about 3min worth in the matt's... but machine for machine, and thats what im comparing, that's what we are running. Honestly don't really care if you believe it or not, it is what it is... :-)

Now our Uppers and lowers... ya... big difference when we got to play with HP!

the Kiwa cut nice, tool probe was horrible, tool breakage never worked correctly and the features of the machine left it less than desirable... worst was you cant add coolant when it was running because the drain was horrible and it sucked the tank 1/3 down when coolant was on. Other issue was chip control, you couldn't get them out fast enough and had to dig them out every 4 hours. and clean filters, otherwise you had a lake of coolant. ergonomically the load station was too high and there were a few other things i cant remember. It did cut nice, made great parts and left a pretty good surface finish. We couldnt get enough look ahead in it for surfacing tho... dirt slow there.

Kiwa KH-45 Good? Bad?

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