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Word of Caution - Insert found not to spec

Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
Northwest Ohio
Just had an ordeal here where I couldn't git my 3/8-24 rings to guage right. It actually seemed as tho my No-Go was .0005 bigger'n my Go! I assumed that one of my rings had been dropped (look like new) or who knows what?

Order was for a 100 parts and they were hot, so I took a chance and ran the parts just so's the rings would just slip on - hoping this would be OK and git them their parts as needed. I sent my guages along and wanted them to check aggin their guages and see where the problem lies.

They checked with their guages and got the exact same results! (And didn't want them of course.)

So now I am really scratching my head. I was running a 24tpi "cresting" insert too. So what's up?

I came on here yesterday and started typing out a post to see who had any ideas to check - be it my G76, or ????

...and then as I am actually puting all the issues in print there was one tidbit that should'a got more attention earlier on - With a .001 adjustment on thread D I could go from a loose ring to no engagement at all. But I just couldn't make no sence of that at the time. (I am claiming tiredness. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!)

Then it struck me upside the head ... ROOT D! But the only problem was that I had not only put in a new insert, but even indexed it once and even when new I still had the same issues. So I went out to inspect that insert and shore nuff - that edge was in perfect shape! (And had it been chipped I Shirely would'a noticed while I was in production, but just one of those things you gotta go back to check eh?)

Anyway - as I am inspecting this insert with fine tooth comb, the nose R of the insert just looked awfully blunt. (big R - not damaged in any way.) That R just looked way too big to werk in a 24 tpi - yet it was a 24tpi insert.

I went to the toybox and dug out another insert from the same package and compared it to the one I was useing, and you could see an obvious difference!

Once my guages got back I hit a part and all my woes went away! (Well - those associated with that part anyway.)

Point being that even the toy makers screw up and we should not forget that fact when trying to de-bug an issue. I have also gotten one cutoff insert yrs ago that had no rake ground onto it yet. $hit happens to everyone and we kant forget the fact that bad toys can come in from big suppliers too.

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I am Ox and I approve this post!
 
I've seen that before. I use full profile inserts all the time because the nose radius gives better tool life. But if the radius is too big your gages start doing some funny stuff.
 
I once got a full box of Iscar HM90 APCR 22mm aluminum inserts that were unground on the radial cutting edge. It was the first box I bought so I didn't know they were wrong. Made real funny marks on the sides of the part! Hammered a lot too.
 
We take a lot for granted when choosing and using inserts.

As Seymour pointed out, the radius tolerance for some thread types and pitches is very small. If you're checking with wires or a pitch micrometer instead of gages, you'll never know if the radius is off a little.

Are the inserts always in tolerance? If they're not what they claim to be but you assume they are and make a bunch of expensive scrap, does Kennametal pick up the tab?

Not likely.
 
Heh,

I had a package of wiper inserts that didn't wipe. I couldn't get the finish to save my life. I looked at one under a microscope and it just didn't look right, so I grabbed the same insert in the wrong grade and ran a part. Finish was perfect. Grrr. I wasted nearly a day screwing around with it.
 
I once had a whole box of OD groovers that the front edge had .012 radius, and the back edge had .007 radius (supposed to be .007 on those). Don't wanna admit how long it took to figure out why the minimal edge breaks on the major OD didn't match, but found out by checking on the comparator. Just took it for granted that they were right, or at least the same. After I called the supplier and a rep stopped by, I got a free box. First thing I did was check them. Because of their quick response and fix, they still have a customer. Major name brand, too.
 
I've seen some inserts before that were completely messed up in the grinding, hole was not even close to being in the center, just complete junk. Name starts with a V.... although I guess it likely happens to a few other brands too sometimes.

What I really hate is brand new threading inserts(or any new inserts) that are chipped before ever getting the chance to be used. Your price per edge quickly goes up.... even worse is not noticed right away and trying to make a part with it. Doesn't seem to matter how much you pay for it either. Although so far I never was disappointed with Sandvik.
 
SND,

I know that V company, and I've never been very crazy about them. Sandvik "may" have been the co I got the "out of speck" groovers from, but whomever is was, they kept me happy by gettin right on it and replacing. That was the only time in years I've ever had a problem with them. I find Sandvik to be responsive and diverse and competitive. I do prefer the Circle boring bars to Sandvik's, though. I've never had any issues with Circle.
 
Interesting, specially since Sandvick owns the V company.

Ox, I hope you complained loud and clear to the salesman and the sales manager at the offending company.

mrainey, In the auto industry you not only pay for the parts you pay for the downtime to sort them and any overtime, shipping and misc. cost. I've seen one of the largest carbide companies pay $55,000.00 for cranks and another pay $32,000.00 for blocks.
Bob
 
The bad Valenite inserts we'd gotten were right around the time I think that Sandvik was buying them out, although the inserts were likely made before that time.

I do wonder if any real Sandvik inserts are being sold as Valenites or if Valenite has its own insert manufacturing operation that is separate. It seems it would be normal for their quality/coatings to get better with Sandvik. anyone know the deal ?
 
Interesting, specially since Sandvick owns the V company.

Ox, I hope you complained loud and clear to the salesman and the sales manager at the offending company.

mrainey, In the auto industry you not only pay for the parts you pay for the downtime to sort them and any overtime, shipping and misc. cost. I've seen one of the largest carbide companies pay $55,000.00 for cranks and another pay $32,000.00 for blocks.
Bob

When it comes to the little guy, I'm not saying they won't listen to a claim but 99/100 they'll tell you to go whatever.
 
In the auto industry you not only pay for the parts you pay for the downtime to sort them and any overtime, shipping and misc. cost. I've seen one of the largest carbide companies pay $55,000.00 for cranks and another pay $32,000.00 for blocks.

And how about compensating your customers for all their down time and missed shipments caused by the bad parts? And the headaches you'll have in the future because of your diminished credibility with your customers?
 
And how about compensating your customers for all their down time and missed shipments caused by the bad parts?
Yup, you'll get the bill for this too. If you're a little guy and you screw up big enough to affect an assembly plant you have only one option. Bankruptcy. The assembly plant charges the component plant which passes the bill to the commodity managers who then bill the manufacture. It's know as cost recovery, there's a standard set of forms for doing it, and it happens all the time. Seems like some plants make more from cost recovery than they do from making parts. I once asked a purchasing manager how they expected to collect almost 2 million from a 6 man job shop. His response was "We don't, we put shops out of business every day."

SND,
Sandvik built V a real nice new plant down in the Carolinas. Carbide operations here in Mi have been shut down. Currently they don't mix products between the two brands. There is much speculation about what is coming (and a lot of worried salespeople). As far as coatings everybody outsources at least some of their coating work. Grinding too, and much toolholder work is jobbed out also. One major brand has never had any carbide production capabilities. All this work goes to the lowest bidder.:eek:

If you've received bad or chipped inserts at the minimum you are due some free tools, a corrective action report to prove they are taking it seriously, and a whole lot of butt kissing. If you don't get at least this I encourage you to post here and everywhere else in the world to let everyone know that you been screwed. Bitch, and bitch loud.

I'm not trying to justify bad parts but if you are shipping millions of parts at least a couple of bad ones are going to get through. Anybody here think they can make a million parts a month without a single bad one slipping by?

Regardless of personal preferences I don't see any noticeable quality control differences among the the major players. I've seen bad parts from all of them but they all take QC very seriously. They all share the same supplier base, inspection methods, and equipment. People move freely between these companies all the time. Once you get carbide in your blood it's hard to get it out.:)

Bob
 
If you keep following that train we will hafta hang the iron minors in the UP and Wisconsin and take all assets of their famillies for materials that went into a gun that killed some 16 yr old drug dealer.

IMO you can always git another supplier if this one aint pannin' out fer yuh! The rest is pass the buck BS!

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The Buck stops here!
Ox
 
Yup, you'll get the bill for this too. If you're a little guy and you screw up big enough to affect an assembly plant you have only one option. Bankruptcy. The assembly plant charges the component plant which passes the bill to the commodity managers who then bill the manufacture. It's know as cost recovery, there's a standard set of forms for doing it, and it happens all the time. Seems like some plants make more from cost recovery than they do from making parts. I once asked a purchasing manager how they expected to collect almost 2 million from a 6 man job shop. His response was "We don't, we put shops out of business every day."


I'm not trying to justify bad parts but if you are shipping millions of parts at least a couple of bad ones are going to get through. Anybody here think they can make a million parts a month without a single bad one slipping by?

Bob

It isn't just little shops that can get really hurt. The fine for us missing / being late on a shipment is $300,000/hr. Same rate applies if you shut down production because of a bad part you shipped, plus all the other incidentals they want to tack on.

We can and do ship more than a million a month with no defects to the customer. But it takes extreme quality control, procedures, and inspection.
 
Probably not that good PPM defect free rate in the industries most of us work for but it is not unheard of in other industries. Like phone, computer, chemicals, tobacco, and other consumer type industries. Massive investments in quality ensure that most toilet paper rolls have paper attached to them. :) And most coke cans have the real thing. :)

But me check my inserts? Probably should if it is a form tool.

Just a question?? Correct me if I am wrong, but awhile back I read a post about a guy that got some parts messed up at the plating shop. I was thinking all the plating shop was liable for was the cost of their service, but if I remember correctly the consensus here was the plating shop was liable for the total cost of replacement. I am not sure that is correct. I think that this was decided by courts along time ago in the aerospace industry when some big outfit sent some small EDM shop some work and they scraped out a lot of $$$ worth of parts and were sued for replacement cost that bankrupted the EDM shop. Ruling was for the cost of the EDM service only and set precedence to keep bussines going. Now I am reading here much greater liability than I would have expected. Comments??
 
Not charging for the cost of the plating or EDMing IMO is BS.

You scrapped someone elses parts and the court tells you that you "don't git to charge them for your service"? Well no $hit! ???

Liability for the cost of those parts is prolly NOT totally outta line IMO - that's one of the reasons that we all carry liability Ins. eh? AND that needs to be fingered into the cost of dooing such werk too...

But for it to go into DOMINO effect can be a never ending ordeal and one that [in all likelyhood] can/will bankrupt the service provider.

IMO - the BS with automotive and all their costs of downtime and such is largely to blame on themselves not wanting their suppliers to have moron a few days inventory on the floor at any one time. Thus - if there are some defects to be found after the fact - there should be some more in the warehouse to replace RIGHT AWAY! Same goes for machine breakdown, truck accident involving scrapped parts, flooding, power outtage [major], etc - etc.

They have hyped and acronymed themselves into a corner.

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I am Ox and I approve this here post!
 
IMO - the BS with automotive and all their costs of downtime and such is largely to blame on themselves not wanting their suppliers to have moron a few days inventory on the floor at any one time. Thus - if there are some defects to be found after the fact - there should be some more in the warehouse to replace RIGHT AWAY! Same goes for machine breakdown, truck accident involving scrapped parts, flooding, power outtage [major], etc - etc.

It's not so much of a 'downtime recovery cost' as it is a 'contractual fine'. It's negotiated in the contract what the fines are for failing to satisfy the various terms of the contract. Unlike most smaller companies, the big boys have _everything_ spelled out in the contract.
 








 
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