Lathe Machine selection for specialized task.

I have a very specialized turning task I need to complete.

My company overhauls Large Aircraft propellers and we need to re cut a fillet on the base of the blade and face off the butt of the blade. Right now we use a manual lathe with a tracer to cut the fillet and manually machine the butt face, which has worked great for over 40 years. Our machine has been needing a lot of maintenance lately, and I have been asked to source a new machine.

A few things about the requirements is that I need a pretty large machine. I need 26" swing over bed and a minimum of 100" center to center.

My first thought was to go with a new high quality manual machine with a new tracer set up. But I found that tracers are not really all that common anymore and my company is looking to grow it's machining capabilities so a CNC would be a huge upgrade over the manual machine we currently use.

I have been looking into different CNC lathes and have found a few different options. I found a Clausing CNC5000 Two Axis Flat Bed 26" lathe with a Fanuc controller. This machine has good specs on paper but I don't know anything about Clausing CNC machines.

Does anyone have any suggestions or know anything about these machines? I have a budget of around $150k and want a good machine that is simple to use and will last forever.

Thanks in advance for your help.

At that price you must be looking at a used machines. I can't imagine finding at new quality CNC lathe with that length at 150K. Probably not even at not-so-good-quality one.

hy / like panza said, 150k for such a lathe is gamble

i dont know what a trace is, or well, i think i do, and maybe i dont know the equivalent english word, but in those money you may simply get another new classical lathe and build a tracer

there are very few cases when someone started with a big cnc lathe ... consider that many fail after getting small cnc lathes

i am not sayng that is impossible if you are runing many big parts, than a big cnc lathe is the key

if machining time for that propeler is short, i doubt that a new cnc will pay off fast, but ...

if you consider buying a new big lathe, try finding a similar one somewhere, and ship your parts there, so to have a clue

Since you can typically put 100 of my lathe parts I make in your pocket, I have nothing to contribute here.

Perhaps one can buy a teach in lathe for that money

Peter

patrickpnw said:

Right now we use a manual lathe with a tracer to cut the fillet and manually machine the butt face, which has worked great for over 40 years. Our machine has been needing a lot of maintenance lately, and I have been asked to source a new machine.

A few things about the requirements is that I need a pretty large machine. I need 26" swing over bed and a minimum of 100" center to center.

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Stick with what works. A large CNC lathe is not going to gain you anything on such a simple task, not to mention be WAY over your budget.

You can pick up a new manual lathe and a hydraulic tracer for less than 1/2 of your allowable budget.

We have been running a Sharp Lathe (Taiwan made) in 30" swing x 100" centers for about 8 years now and it has been a pretty good machine. I would recommend it.

31B, 312B, 316B | Sharp Industries

patrickpnw said:

I have a very specialized turning task I need to complete.

My company overhauls Large Aircraft propellers and we need to re cut a fillet on the base of the blade and face off the butt of the blade. Right now we use a manual lathe with a tracer to cut the fillet and manually machine the butt face, which has worked great for over 40 years. Our machine has been needing a lot of maintenance lately, and I have been asked to source a new machine.

A few things about the requirements is that I need a pretty large machine. I need 26" swing over bed and a minimum of 100" center to center.

My first thought was to go with a new high quality manual machine with a new tracer set up. But I found that tracers are not really all that common anymore and my company is looking to grow it's machining capabilities so a CNC would be a huge upgrade over the manual machine we currently use.

I have been looking into different CNC lathes and have found a few different options. I found a Clausing CNC5000 Two Axis Flat Bed 26" lathe with a Fanuc controller. This machine has good specs on paper but I don't know anything about Clausing CNC machines.

Does anyone have any suggestions or know anything about these machines? I have a budget of around $150k and want a good machine that is simple to use and will last forever.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Click to expand...

Yeah really what Philabuster said / +1,

'cuz I'm like @patrickpnw what lathe are you running, model, year and brand as I might be interested in taking it off your hands. I kinda like tracers/tracer attachments.

On the CNC side I reckon you do have a few options... let me scratch around while I wake up over espresso number 3.

So you are saying you need the 100" between centers so that the length of the blade is in a special jig between centers? (So you can face off at the root/butt of the prop blade? ). Just sayi'n would love to see a video of that, wondering how you mount and balance your prop blade? Assuming pretty low rpm..., maybe not such a big deal?

How long is the actual blade and can it over hang the "bed" casting of the lathe?

Also how much does the prop blade weigh?

Ta.

I'm thinking that how that blade is mounted/fixture into a CNC machine could really add up using conventional accessories.

Romi?

ROMI* seem to have a number of larger teach type flat bed lathes that don't look too bad for what you need perhaps?


http://www.romiusa.com/wordpress/wp...1/ROMI-C-1000-one-page-catalogue-V2._0916.pdf

The non "Big bore"/BB version of the C-1000 has...

Swing over Bed: 39.4"
Swing over cross slide 27.6"
120" between centers.

45HP (two speed) geared head stock.


C 1 / C 1BB | Romi USA

You can get it with a Siemens control and a movable apron/quasi manual...

Not sure on price but would wonder if it floats around the $150K mark ?

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*No affiliation.

I'm a bit surprised that re-building the prop involves taking off that much material.

I would think a cylindrical grinder would be a better fit.

And, when using the lathe, if you loose the insert during the radius operation, it's
gonna leave a mark. Grinding would be better suited to not damage expensive material.

Panza said:

At that price you must be looking at a used machines. I can't imagine finding at new quality CNC lathe with that length at 150K. Probably not even at not-so-good-quality one.

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I have a quote for a Clausing CNC6000 30" swing machine 120" center to center that comes in right around $145,000 + the cost of installation and tooling.

Philabuster said:

Stick with what works. A large CNC lathe is not going to gain you anything on such a simple task, not to mention be WAY over your budget.

You can pick up a new manual lathe and a hydraulic tracer for less than 1/2 of your allowable budget.

We have been running a Sharp Lathe (Taiwan made) in 30" swing x 100" centers for about 8 years now and it has been a pretty good machine. I would recommend it.

31B, 312B, 316B | Sharp Industries

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I think in the ideal solution for this would be to buy a new high quality manual lathe and a new tracer. With that being said there are very few places that still manufacture tracers and none that I have found that make them large enough for a 30" swing. I may be able to get one made for a smaller machine to work but I have management telling me that there are some future products that may come in that require a lathe. Without knowing what the parts are or the requirements I cant say a CNC is needed but I think a CNC will be much more of a repeatable of a process than the current tracer set-up which seems like every machinist thinks it should be set up differently.

I have looked into the Sharp machine and got a quote a little under the quote I have for the Clausing. There is a local shop here with a large swing Clausing and have run it for over 7 years and like the machine. That's the only reason I am leaning toward the Clausing.

cameraman said:

Yeah really what Philabuster said / +1,

'cuz I'm like @patrickpnw what lathe are you running, model, year and brand as I might be interested in taking it off your hands. I kinda like tracers/tracer attachments.

On the CNC side I reckon you do have a few options... let me scratch around while I wake up over espresso number 3.

So you are saying you need the 100" between centers so that the length of the blade is in a special jig between centers? (So you can face off at the root/butt of the prop blade? ). Just sayi'n would love to see a video of that, wondering how you mount and balance your prop blade? Assuming pretty low rpm..., maybe not such a big deal?

How long is the actual blade and can it over hang the "bed" casting of the lathe?

Also how much does the prop blade weigh?

Ta.

I'm thinking that how that blade is mounted/fixture into a CNC machine could really add up using conventional accessories.

Click to expand...

Blade is about 80 something inches long + tooling makes the tip around 90" from the spindle. The root or taper bore of the blade is tapered so we center on that and there are 2 threads on the butt face we use to hold the blade onto the taper tooling when cutting the fillet. We then use a really sketchy adapter that clamps to the blade tip to be supported in a live center when we remove the bolts to cut the butt face.

I am working on making a custom live center adapter to help solve some problems we have with the process. The problem is every blade is different and they do not rotate on center with the taper bore. My idea is essentially a live center with some hard rubber or a UHMW pad that the blade tip can kind of dig into. It is only turning at 200 ish RPM so it doesn't need to be dead nuts but needs to hold it onto the tapered tooling and not add too much vibration.

Where are the Clausing lathes made? I'm guessing China here, but don't actually know/could be completely wrong? Years ago I think the name "Clausing" used to mean something, but really not sure where they are today with everything?

cameraman said:

Where are the Clausing lathes made? I'm guessing China here, but don't actually know/could be completely wrong? Years ago I think the name "Clausing" used to mean something, but really not sure where they are today with everything?

Click to expand...

They are made in Taiwan I believe. The machine I am looking at, the Clausing CNC600MR has good specs on paper but I don't know much about them. The thing is the propeller blade we turn on the lathe is only 125 lbs which is nothing for a 30" swing machine, and we are typically only removing .002" to .005" so its not like we need a really heavy duty machine. More we just need a reliable machine that does not break down often and has good support when it does.

I have looked at a Okuma but the $475,0000 price is a little out of the budget.

Is everything out of Taiwan crap? I have heard many different opinions about the quality of machines coming out of Taiwan.

patrickpnw said:

Is everything out of Taiwan crap? I have heard many different opinions about the quality of machines coming out of Taiwan.

Click to expand...

The Sharp lathe we have in our shop bought new has been 100% reliable and is pretty well made. Throw a decent DRO on it like a Newall and it holds tolerances no problem.

The odd part of this job is the very large machine tool to do
work in the size covered by probably a 12" x 24" X Y cnc table.

And as I surmised, the small cuts don't require much rigidity,
especially if a grinder is used.

Heald made cylindrical chucking grinders that were "building block" style, and IIRC someone is re-building them, and making
custom machines from them.
I can see a large thru hole head stock, with only the blade shank protruding thru to a small work head (8"-10" wheel) mounted
on the aforementioned 12" x 24" cnc table.

patrickpnw said:

They are made in Taiwan I believe. The machine I am looking at, the Clausing CNC600MR has good specs on paper but I don't know much about them. The thing is the propeller blade we turn on the lathe is only 125 lbs which is nothing for a 30" swing machine, and we are typically only removing .002" to .005" so its not like we need a really heavy duty machine. More we just need a reliable machine that does not break down often and has good support when it does.

I have looked at a Okuma but the $475,0000 price is a little out of the budget.

Is everything out of Taiwan crap? I have heard many different opinions about the quality of machines coming out of Taiwan.

Click to expand...

Mostly stuff from Tawian is really pretty good to very good, as compared to PRC (People's Republic of China).

I have some manual Taiwanese lathes from Eisen (not that different from SHARP), that were really good retrofitted new with scales/DRO(s) and such... No complaints at all.

As far as other CNC equipment, there are really solid MTBs (machine Tool Builders) in Taiwan, like Quaser, Hardinge,and Hurco, and a number of Japanese MTBs that have lines out of Taiwan too, including Okuma Genos (castings: Taiwan, mechatronics etc. Japan + final assembly).

Taiwan historically has been far more technologically sophisticated and higher quality for much longer than PRC (People's republic of China)**.

So for me anything made in China is pretty much a no, no, for me but there are one or two brands that are pretty solid. Anything from Taiwan I normally think "Chill/much better"... You always get what you pay for.

Maybe something from Chevalier* also perhaps for long lasting. solid and not coming with "Sticker shock"? [Need to check your swing and distance between centers*].



I can't help thinking if there's another way to make the cut you need, without having to rotate the propeller, and hence having to have 100" between centers ? (maybe I have a look at some old school boring methods done on lathes where the tool is in effect doing some sort of variant of orbital turning... (i.e. tool is in some sort of dynamic workholding on the spindle.)

I liked the grinding idea (digger doug) / maybe grinding attachment to a lathe? / Custom-ish solution?

It's hard to visualize what can be done without getting a sense of the specific geometry and cuts that need to be made.

Is the metal you are removing ferrous (heat treated)? Or are you machining Aluminum?

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* http://www.chevalierusa.com/product...-lathe/fcl-32-40-tool-room-teach-lathe-detail

The FCL-40120 "Flat bed teach lathe" might be an option for you. [I know more about their mills than their "teach lathes" but Chevalier does all right for some pretty demanding applications even for "Gov. / DoD". ]. They try to provide the toughest most rugged machine for the $ that can still be of really acceptable precision and accuracy for a lot of applications.

** [Tawian is not a communist country and has had for a quite along time a very successful semiconductor/micro chip industry, and hence the whole precision engineering and machining infra structure to pull that off (for several decades at least). Some of the most sophisticated systems and products for the "West" are made in partnership with Taiwanese companies].

A rotary table mounted facing up and a Kuka robot with a milling spindle on it?

I think you could get that setup for a hell of a lot less money and gain significant process flexibility and part-swap speed.

cameraman said:

Maybe something from Chevalier*

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We also have a Chevalier CNC mill (2552VMC-L) that has also been reliable for the 8 years since it was also purchased new. We don't run it hard but have had no service calls to get shit fixed on it. It just keeps making parts.

Clausing is just one of the 'brands' owned by the British 600 group, which is better known for its Colchester and Harrison lathes. Clausing as an independent US machine tool company dissapeared many many years ago. If it matters to you I think it would be worth asking where the lathe that you are considering is made. I suspect it is neither US or UK, and probably not Taiwan either, although I may be wrong about the last. Interestingly, 600 group is selling the Clausing line in UK against its own other brands of Harrison and Colchester. From the adverts I think they are positioning the Clausing offerings as 'value' mills, drills, and bandsaws or in the case of that lathe the 'unusual form factor' offerings.