Looking at 3 machines, could use some guidance

Now I know there are many threads like this, I have taken the time to read many of them.
My head is just spinning though and I am more unsure now than before.
The machine must fit into a normal Australian sized garage , but I am willing to modify the ceiling as mine is a little low for some machines, but my door is 2140mm only, to get the machine in. That would mean some planning I would imagine. There then comes the issue that my garage concrete floor is 100mm thick, and not reinforced.

So I was going to buy a Haas Mini mill and option it right up to a 5th axis machine. (TRT 100 rotary)
The reason for this, is I am making my own products and all are fairly small parts. In fact the biggest is the watch case itself. (I have a small watch brand that I started) I have a Wabeco bench top mill at this time, and if I want to make something else I will just use that, as the Mini mill would be setup and stay setup. The pros of that machine is 240v power.

So not to be one who buys the first thing I see , I looked at all these threads to see what everyone thought.
I found the Hurco VM 10, pretty interesting and a little more future proof perhaps, and has many options included here in Australia, including unimontion software looking 10,000 blocks ahead.
I want a probe and tool probe , but do not have the budget to turn that into a 5 axis machine.

Then I found the Robodrill DiB5 and there is little difference in price between the the S and M models, but I do not have the budget to go the Adv model, so it would be the basic one.
Still has a fair few features, looks fast and compact, built in Japan which is not lost on me.
Buy the time I get the probe, cant get 5th axis, but this is the only machines where the wiring and drives are already there, so could have that option later down the track easier than the others.
2 year warranty also a big deal.

Since I looked at the Hurco, I then looked at the Haas again and tried to make it apples for apples and that would be optioning out a SMinimill2 without the 5th axis or a DM2 with tool probe

All Five machines end up, ball park same price, maybe Haas Minimill a little cheaper since I would not put in 3 phase power

I do not machine anything other than Stainless steel and want to also machine grade 5 Ti watches as well. The small Wabeco is very rigid and I have managed 316 and grade 2 Ti so far without issue.
These parts will not be flying out the door , so tool change speeds of 0.7 secs, while nice and fun to watch, are not things that are needed.
Cost effective, idiot proof, as I am a diver and self taught machine operator, with a long way to go.
One of the reasons I wanted 5 axis is my lack of experience, so 2 ops are easier than 3 and some parts are then only 1 op, not 2. etc.

I like that Robodrill, but if I cant afford 5 axis , I fear the table is too small on the S modeland would have to spend a fair fit more on a pallet change system then.

So I know this can be a heated topic with Haas in there, but there tip of the day series would also help me at the machine and out the three brands , they are the only one with a local rep here in Perth Western Australia. Now I dont know if that would be useful or not, but from what I have read, the Robodrill is the least likely to break, but I would get my 5th axis .
This is a big purchase for me, as my watch brand can not do business with its current model, as all parts are made in Europe and the $AUD is not great. I either make the cases in-house or close the doors, so to speak. I will not have Asian made cases, so that is simply not an option.

Any insights, that I may not be considering or missing?

What size tools do you run most, at what spindle speeds, and what spindle speeds in the machines? My thinking the RoboDrill would be hard to beat. Can you get a Brother?

No Brother in Australia,
I have just been down the same road and have chosen a Hyuandai Wia Icut 400TD I needed the pallet changer.
Bernard

DavidScott said:

What size tools do you run most, at what spindle speeds, and what spindle speeds in the machines? My thinking the RoboDrill would be hard to beat. Can you get a Brother?

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As he said. The Brother machine I did send off an email and ask about import etc, but no answer as of yet. Warranty would then be an issue of course.
So tools, well I do have a 100mm face mill, but I can prep stock on the Wabeco, so thats ok, but other than that , mostly up to 6mm tools only. The biggest end mill I use on a regular basis , is 12mm, but most are only 3-4mm tools. Currently I use the ER25 collet system for all end mills, but with a new machine I would be looking closely at that, to find the most rigid and accurate option I can.
I know that Robodrill machine seems like a great choice, but would be spec'd lower than the Haas.
I take light cuts with tool manufacturer recommendations for speeds with a minor tweak here or there, and am happy with doing that in the future.
Smashing off 10mm cuts in 316 is not needed and doubtful I would gain much.
0.5mm cuts is what I am taking now with adaptive roughing (depending on what tools I have to use) followed by 0.2mm cuts after that. The stock is prepared already of course.
On the Wabeco I have taken 4mm cuts in 316, but have not found that to be the best step forward, as the tools do not like it and the finish is not the best, so plodding along as above is all I want to do.
That is one reason I keep looking at the Haas, since I read it is not the most rigid machine out of the choices, as I dont think that would come into play making what I am making.

nscele said:

No Brother in Australia,
I have just been down the same road and have chosen a Hyuandai Wia Icut 400TD I needed the pallet changer.
Bernard

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First I am seeing that one. Can I ask where and why you got that, how its going and the the cost?

I will pm you, slightly cheaper than a Robodrill, more than a Doosan, I chose it because I have bought from the importer before, they are close to me in Qld delivery time was excellent.

Do you really need full 5 axis, or maybe you can have dedicated fixtures for your product?

My first choice would be the Robodrill. Plain 3 axis. I believe BBT30 is standard, which is a plus if you're making 3D surfacing.

In terms of capacity, you shouldn't think where you're now, You should think where you're going to be in 5 years.

Saying this, the MiniMill will be the last choice. You will grow very fast out of it's capabilities. I'm not even sure if you can put a TRT inside.

riabma77 said:

Do you really need full 5 axis, or maybe you can have dedicated fixtures for your product?

My first choice would be the Robodrill. Plain 3 axis. I believe BBT30 is standard, which is a plus if you're making 3D surfacing.

In terms of capacity, you shouldn't think where you're now, You should think where you're going to be in 5 years.

Saying this, the MiniMill will be the last choice. You will grow very fast out of it's capabilities. I'm not even sure if you can put a TRT inside.

Click to expand...

I do not need it, but would very much like it. The TRT 100 fits inside the Sminimill and the Minimill with extra fixturing from what I understand. BBT30 is in the quote, so yes, I guess that is standard. It is looking better and better that machine. Future wise, I think it comes down to more spindles, rather than the particular machine.

Aegir said:

The TRT 100 fits inside the Sminimill and the Minimill with extra fixturing from what I understand.

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If your parts are fairly small, you will need tool holders with longer gage length. You don't only need to detect collisions between the TRT and tool holders. You also need to detect collisions between the TRT and the tools in the carousel during a tool change. Not sure either if you will have enough travel in X to access to the tool setter (if needed).

Hi Aegir:
Resist the temptation to overspend in order to be better positioned 5 years from now for a need you don't even fully understand yet.
It becomes very easy to start wishing for fairy tale business projections to be true and it's a small mental step to go from there to hoping, and from there to believing; from there to betting the farm on it.
I've recently watched it happen, and the middle game is bloody ugly even if the end game is ultimately hoped to be successful.
It becomes so damned stressful to service the debt as well as try to keep the business going that it becomes almost impossible to stay sane.

Obviously you know your business better than I do, but ultimately you have no idea where you'll be five years from now and pretending to plan for that production at this stage is a fool's errand.
Breaking your head over "which machine" is not going to be the determinant of your success or failure; five years from now you could be so successful that you've long since retired that first machine and are master and commander of a whole forest of cool state-of-the-art toys while swimming in loot.
Conversely you could be out on the street with not a pot to piss in.

You believe you have a current need...how well supported is your belief by evidence?
Do you have sales yet?
Do you even have expressions of interest you can take to the bank?
Do you have a production bottleneck you cannot solve with outsourcing?

This "making shit for a living" is not an easy gig, it's even harder if you're a novice at making stuff efficiently.
But it's your dream and you're entitled to pursue it so by all means buy something if you really really want to and can swing it and especially if you can still swing it even if the enterprise you bought it for fails.
But don't be tempted to drop another twenty or thirty or a hundred grand to be Mister Super Efficiency right out of the gate just because some sales guy whispered golden promises in your ear.
If you go from your Wabeco to a simple, much-maligned used Haas Minimill for fifteen grand, you'll be so far ahead of your current capability you could fill a warehouse with product in a month if you use it to the max.
Can you sell all you could make even with that budget level toy?
Can you finance all you'd need to in order to actually make and sell all that product?

The main calculus you have to be comfortable with is that the expenses are remorseless and pretty predictable...the sales are a fairy tale until they actually happen.
You have to weather the storm until they do. and the super cool 5 axis gadget won't help you a bit if you can't hold on to it and sell it's output at a profit.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

implmex said:

Hi Aegir:
Resist the temptation to overspend in order to be better positioned 5 years from now for a need you don't even fully understand yet.
It becomes very easy to start wishing for fairy tale business projections to be true and it's a small mental step to go from there to hoping, and from there to believing; from there to betting the farm on it.
I've recently watched it happen, and the middle game is bloody ugly even if the end game is ultimately hoped to be successful.
It becomes so damned stressful to service the debt as well as try to keep the business going that it becomes almost impossible to stay sane.

Obviously you know your business better than I do, but ultimately you have no idea where you'll be five years from now and pretending to plan for that production at this stage is a fool's errand.
Breaking your head over "which machine" is not going to be the determinant of your success or failure; five years from now you could be so successful that you've long since retired that first machine and are master and commander of a whole forest of cool state-of-the-art toys while swimming in loot.
Conversely you could be out on the street with not a pot to piss in.

You believe you have a current need...how well supported is your belief by evidence?
Do you have sales yet?
Do you even have expressions of interest you can take to the bank?
Do you have a production bottleneck you cannot solve with outsourcing?

This "making shit for a living" is not an easy gig, it's even harder if you're a novice at making stuff efficiently.
But it's your dream and you're entitled to pursue it so by all means buy something if you really really want to and can swing it and especially if you can still swing it even if the enterprise you bought it for fails.
But don't be tempted to drop another twenty or thirty or a hundred grand to be Mister Super Efficiency right out of the gate just because some sales guy whispered golden promises in your ear.
If you go from your Wabeco to a simple, much-maligned used Haas Minimill for fifteen grand, you'll be so far ahead of your current capability you could fill a warehouse with product in a month if you use it to the max.
Can you sell all you could make even with that budget level toy?
Can you finance all you'd need to in order to actually make and sell all that product?

The main calculus you have to be comfortable with is that the expenses are remorseless and pretty predictable...the sales are a fairy tale until they actually happen.
You have to weather the storm until they do. and the super cool 5 axis gadget won't help you a bit if you can't hold on to it and sell it's output at a profit.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Click to expand...

Thanks Marcus

You make many valid points and a voice for reason. I do not disagree , nor does my wife!
So , I started my business in 2009, designed the watch etc and put some money down to a German company to make the cases. Sourced the movements from Switzerland and so on and so on. I lived in Germany at the time, so was paid in Euro and I did OK for myself, as I was a Commercial Diver working in the North Sea. 2011 was my first watch for sale. The cost of this model is high and returns are low, but I built (I put the watches together myself) 125 watches and sold 125 watches. It took a few years and things were slow, but I started a brand from nothing, so that was to be expected. I turn down (no stock) at least 1 watch sale a week and I know that is not big business, but I have never once advertised my product.
If I can produce x amount of watches but at least build and sell 1 watch per week, the machine will be paid for in 24 months , as spec'd above.
I have no real debt and rather than get a business loan, I will mortgage my house, meaning my payments are very low at 4% interest and I have a day job that will cover that without issue (no longer Diving though).
So outsourcing is too expensive now that I am back living in Australia and the lead times are way too long , so this is the only model that will work for the product I want to produce. Not buying Chinese parts to make a profit, I just will not do it.

5 axis is a wish, just so I can reduce the ops on a part to reduce the time taken on a single machine and the chance of wasting a part going from the two ops top and bottom to the sides on the middle case and then there is an internal ring that could be done in one op instead of three and the other parts are round with both top and bottom operations. Fairly straight forward stuff and everything can be done on an expansion clamp. I also make buckles, of which I am selling a few, so that is some income trickling in.

I am not planning to be giving up my day job, unless sales are covering everything over an extended period , proving it will work.

So I approach this from this mindset.
You can accumulate without speculation , my day job covers the bills without a single part being made and the machine brands I am looking at would get good resale if things did not work out.
That brings me to another point you made, a used Haas in the country is either so old that there is a reason it is for sale or the price so high over here, you may as well buy new. Australia is not a great buyers market for machine tools.
So given these facts, what do you think now?

implmex said:

Obviously you know your business better than I do, but ultimately you have no idea where you'll be five years from now and pretending to plan for that production at this stage is a fool's errand.

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IMHO, if you have a very specific product, for a very determined type of customer, and you know the market, you should have an idea where you will be at least in the next 2-3 years.

Hi riabma77:
For an established business you'd get no argument from me; certainly this sort of planning is done all the time and obviously it makes perfect sense to do so.
But the OP is just starting out, and it sounds to me like he's going to be making his very first "real" machine purchase.

It's very easy at this stage to obsess about exactly which one to buy, and often it is not even remotely the most important thing for a fledgling business to drop all their attention or cash into.
If he buys the Hurco instead of the Robodrill, I can't bring myself to believe all will go to Hell because he didn't get the optimum machine.
If he buys the super 5 axis toy never having run one and crashes it through inexperience, the repair bill alone has a good chance of sinking him.

So sure...your advice is perfectly reasonable for an established business with an established sales volume, but it's a much bigger risk for a brand new business, even if it can do the job perfectly.
The cash pile it takes is big...even if all goes swimmingly.
Throw in 2 more axes and the pile grows impressively.
Without deep pockets to smooth the bumps, it's likely gonna hurt.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

implmex said:

Hi riabma77:
For an established business you'd get no argument from me; certainly this sort of planning is done all the time and obviously it makes perfect sense to do so.
But the OP is just starting out, and it sounds to me like he's going to be making his very first "real" machine purchase.

It's very easy at this stage to obsess about exactly which one to buy, and often it is not even remotely the most important thing for a fledgling business to drop all their attention or cash into.
If he buys the Hurco instead of the Robodrill, I can't bring myself to believe all will go to Hell because he didn't get the optimum machine.
If he buys the super 5 axis toy never having run one and crashes it through inexperience, the repair bill alone has a good chance of sinking him.

So sure...your advice is perfectly reasonable for an established business with an established sales volume, but it's a much bigger risk for a brand new business, even if it can do the job perfectly.
The cash pile it takes is big...even if all goes swimmingly.
Throw in 2 more axes and the pile grows impressively.
Without deep pockets to smooth the bumps, it's likely gonna hurt.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Click to expand...

I did reply to your above comment to explain where I was actually at, but it was waiting for ''approval'' Not sure when it will appear, but yes you are correct, this is a first ''real'' machine purchase. I have a way of financing this that has small repayments and flexible repayments , meaning I could pay it off quickly without penalty. My day job can cover all.
I know Haas has a mixed review online, but I could also get the Minimill2 with probing and rigid tapping and stop there as a first machine, which with a little more knowledge on my end, will be meeting my needs for the foreseeable future. It is 240v single phase also, which is a saving over the others, as I do not yet have 3 phase power. It is the only business model going forward (making cases in-house) so a machine of some type is needed. I have a market and a product, so at the very least, providing of course I am up to the task, some income will trickle in each month.

Aegir,

Thanks for sharing your story. If you aren't concerned about cycle time, then a MiniMill will work perfectly for you.
I have a Mini. It's also my first 'real' machine (I started with a Tormach). My suggestion is to go with the MiniMill 2. Not sure how many tools you will need, but the 9 pockets carousel fills very fast!
However, once you start adding options, price go up very fast, and you will not be very far from a Robodrill Eco, with a more reliable machine and less maintenance. A digital phase converter isn't very expensive, so don't get discourage with 3 phase.
If you have any question about the Mini, feel free to ask. I will be glad to share my experience.
Good luck!

Ricardo

I've had a Mini Mill of some sort since the first year they came out. They have some sincere limitations; ten pocket tool changer, fairly slow tool change, and 6000 RPM spindle. That being said, I will never be without one and it is still my favorite machine to run.

I buy the most basic minimill that has the features I need. In your case that it is a pretty much the base model machine. Probing is nice, but not necessary. Same with the chip auger. I would consider the upgrade to the high speed machining, to make efficient use of the new high speed tool paths and surfacing. Your machining SS so I wouldn't bother with the 10000 rpm spindle. 5th Axis will be a huge cash and time sink and I wouldn't bother unless I could turn >4 operations into one.

Basically, that is a $35,000 USD machine. Then take all that money that you were going to sink into a "better" machine and buy top of the line tooling, software, vises, and all of the other things that add up quicker than you believe. If you outgrow the machine, you can sell it in one day for almost the same as you got into it.

Are you taking into account the additional cost (both in software licenses and in programming time) of 5 axis vs 3 axis programming (ignoring machine cost for the moment)?
Keep in mind you can be around $20,000+ USD for high end CAM licenses with 5axis contouring/surfacing etc.
Fusion360 has 5 axis at a lower price point but does not seem to have the market share for this type of programming that mastercam or others have. Even so Fusion360 with 5-axis is $1500 USD/yr vs $300/yr for 3-axis.
There is also a significant learning curve compared to 3-axis and you will probably take more setup time than 3-axis jobs, at least at the beginning. Although since it sounds like you are mostly indexing rather than 5x contouring maybe not.

FWIW, the 3axis (but 5-axis "ready") Robodrill seems most attractive to me in this situation. Possible to DIY the 5th install later down the road?

Hi Aegir:
Your story is impressive; I think it's very inspiring to hear of what you've accomplished and to hear that you've been so level headed and thorough in your business planning.
You seem to be really together on this project: that's pretty rare for designers and inventors, so kudos to you!

Going back to the subject of your first post however: you know, these sound an awful lot like mill-turn parts or maybe live tooled Y axis subspindle lathe parts.
Have you considered making them or having them made this way?
Obviously you'd be looking at a quite different machine and machining strategy, but it's probably worth at least a good hard look.

Do you have pictures you can post of some of your parts?
No dimensioned prints are necessary; just some snapshots of what they look like would already reveal a lot about how they could best be made.

There are a lot of very smart machinists on this forum with boatloads of experience tooling up for complex parts like you're describing.
Maybe we can help.

Once you've sorted out the very best way these could be made, it'll inform your decisions about the compromises you might have to or decide to make in the short term while you ramp up.
It'll also help tell you how deeply you should invest in the "wrong" technology knowing what the "right" technology actually looks like; so once you're rolling in that proverbial loot, you can make the switch more easily if you choose to.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Have you tried outsouricing in Aus yet? How extensive is your machining knowledge to go 5axis, even though it sounds like your looking to go 3+2?

G00 Proto said:

I've had a Mini Mill of some sort since the first year they came out. They have some sincere limitations; ten pocket tool changer, fairly slow tool change, and 6000 RPM spindle. That being said, I will never be without one and it is still my favorite machine to run.

I buy the most basic minimill that has the features I need. In your case that it is a pretty much the base model machine. Probing is nice, but not necessary. Same with the chip auger. I would consider the upgrade to the high speed machining, to make efficient use of the new high speed tool paths and surfacing. Your machining SS so I wouldn't bother with the 10000 rpm spindle. 5th Axis will be a huge cash and time sink and I wouldn't bother unless I could turn >4 operations into one.

Basically, that is a $35,000 USD machine. Then take all that money that you were going to sink into a "better" machine and buy top of the line tooling, software, vises, and all of the other things that add up quicker than you believe. If you outgrow the machine, you can sell it in one day for almost the same as you got into it.

Click to expand...

The probing is something that would save me some time and would be worth it. I have a day job, so have less time at the machine than otherwise I might, so would be a cost that would pay for itself. But you make fair points and I certainly do not need a chip auger and other bits. My 7500 rpm spindle does the job is Stainless , so 6000 would likely be ok if I slow it down on the feed rate. Having said that, it has more HP and torque than mine. 6 secs a tool change or even 20 secs does not matter, as now I walk off and come back when I can to manually change, so if I went out and was gone for 3 hours longer than the cycle nothing gets done. So as long as it changes a tool at all, I am happy.