Looking to buy a new machine...

I've been doing this for about 3 years now, and I'm starting to grow enough to where I'm considering a new machine. I've always been a fan of Haas, but after reading through some of the threads on here, it sounds like they are having a lot of issues...

I currently have a 4 axis machine that has a 7.5 hp 4000 rpm spindle, and 175 max rapid rate. It's pretty well maxed out as far as run time at this point due to the spindle.

I'm looking to get a decent 3 axis machine with a 5 axis trunnion on it. I was looking into either a VF-3 or VM-3 with a TR160(or maybe a little bigger) on it. However, I don't have any other Haas machines, so I'm not partial to Haas. What other machines would be comparable or be a better deal?

I'm not looking for the fastest or most accurate top of the line pricey machine, but I want something that can make good parts fast. I do mostly short runs, so I'm looking for more versatility than anything.

Any input is appreciated, thanks everyone!

What's your work envelope? I know the Brother machines are getting quite popular and will do 5-axis indexing. And they'll definitely meet the FAST requirement.

Around 40"x20"x25" would be about what I'm looking for. While I've drooled over the Brothers a good bit myself, I'm guessing that they are a little bit pricey for that size. Haas fits my budget a little better, but it seems that their quality may be going down from what I've heard. I'm also loking into a Doosan machine, but I have no idea how their machines or support are.

I just picked up a doosan dnm5700 ,, there $79.900 with 12K spindle, TSC /TSA and a real chip conveyor .. Being one of the people haas screwed over with there POS new next-gen control I have had enough of haas. I looked at about every mill made and brothers and doosan came to the top of my list ,,, I went with doosan in that it fit the line of parts I wanted it for better ,,, that and I just like 40 taper.

one HUGE selling point for me was 100% fanuc electronics ,,, might not be the most user friendly stuff but at least I can get parts to keep it running after 12 years unlike the BS haas is pulling ..

I have seen local shop get parts for there fanuc 3M control from the early 80`s ...... Something about supporting the customers that support you.

They are not cheap to buy, but not built cheap either, check out the Okuma Genos M560. Edster I think has a new machine day thread. Lightning fast feed, 15k rpm, can be had with an elevated column for 4th/5th, but you likely won't find one below $100k.

do a youtube search for okuma m560. some impressive footage.

I think that Okuma is a bit steep on pricing, ecspecially for just my second machine.

I went on Ebay looking at used Doosans and was suprised at what I found... I had originally planned on buying new, ecspecially with learning a new control, but some of these deals are hard to turn down if they are solid .

OKUMA M56-V, 216, RENISHAW PROBING, ONLY 13 HOURS | eBay

USED DOOSAN MV-316L CNC MILL 27 TSC FANUC 3.16.2" VMC 59 HOURS DAEWOO | eBay

I'll be heading down in the direction of both of those machines fairly soon, so I could stop and look over them. Basically, is there any big things to look at on these machines that anyone knows about? If they are in good shape, I'm definetely going to consider buying one of them.

Jeremy63 said:

Around 40"x20"x25" would be about what I'm looking for.

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Hoy! That size with a 5 axis trunnion, that's gonna be tall order on the cheap.

Seriously, I do have my own issues with this freakin' NG control, but I certainly did not get burned like D.D. has.

I am confident that Haas will sort out the problems and get it right at some point, hopefully within a reasonable timeframe.
Don't get me wrong, I am pissed at this miserable thing ( NG) plenty enough, but the machine does work and produces correct parts.

In your case, you're looking at a VF4 ( or a VF3YT ) with the trunnion, and that WILL be over 100K, even from Haas no matter what.
While In a Plane-Jane machine you do have cost comparable options, but that extra 4th/5th will kill 'ya.

That would be the travels for a VF-3. I don't have to have that x and y much travel, as I'm mainly concerned about having plenty of z travel for a rotary or trunnion. If I go Haas, I'm buying a brand new machine because of the warranty. I don't want to get burned and not even have a warranty to cover it. However, if I can find a good used machine that I know will have good support, I'm all for it.

well it is definitely a BUYERS market right now the used and new spindles out there are at prices most guys have never seen before. if i were you i'd look hard at a good low hour used machine. and most of all it boils down to service & support. i'm just getting up and rolling with my shop and i'm doing it at a fraction of what i had budgeted for major capital purchases.

I have a 2015 VF3SSYT 40x26x25 5axis with about all the options with a tr-160 rotary table for sale. $120K. Just north of Philadelphia.

ducesrwld said:

well it is definitely a BUYERS market right now the used and new spindles out there are at prices most guys have never seen before. if i were you i'd look hard at a good low hour used machine. and most of all it boils down to service & support. i'm just getting up and rolling with my shop and i'm doing it at a fraction of what i had budgeted for major capital purchases.

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I recently made a joking offer of $3K for around $50K-$60K worth of used CNC mills. They accepted. Rigging adventures ensued.

I was the ONLY person to even call on the equipment as it had been advertised for months and new machines were coming. They did advertise the machines wrong, as the nothing special plain jane models at reasonable prices. Upon in person inspection it was obvious these were fully optioned out larger travel machines with drastically different specs from what they stated.

We have two Doosan machines. Our older one is in Kentucky, and the one here at home we got in March. I'm very impressed with them. Good solid reliable machine. As far as support, it's hard to tell because our experience is that we don't need support. The machine in Kentucky is almost 4 years old and has not required a single service call. That in itself says a lot.

Dan

gotta face reality at some point and it is probably going to happen when you least expect it and can't afford the down time. service/support still a big factor for most companies out there. but hey if you can handle it 100% on your own more power to you.

Dan B said:

We have two Doosan machines. Our older one is in Kentucky, and the one here at home we got in March. I'm very impressed with them. Good solid reliable machine. As far as support, it's hard to tell because our experience is that we don't need support. The machine in Kentucky is almost 4 years old and has not required a single service call. That in itself says a lot.

Dan

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Found a used Fadal that I could go and check out this week in person.

USED FADAL VMC-4 CNC VERTICAL MILL 23 4TH AXIS 28" Z-axis 4.2.28" 32MP | eBay

It may not be quite as fast as I ws looking for, but it would probably be a good mid-range mill that would be a nice step up from where I'm at now. If everything seems good with the machine, I'll seriously consider it.

Anyone know much about the older Fadals? I haven't heard much about Fadal machines (good OR bad), which I suppose may be a good thing as you only hear the bad stuff about a company.

Jeremy63 said:

Anyone know much about the older Fadals? I haven't heard much about Fadal machines (good OR bad), which I suppose may be a good thing as you only hear the bad stuff about a company.

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Comes up once a week or so.. Do a search.. And that is too much money for that machine, though if you go the Fadal route, the 28"Z is REALLY
handy, if not a necessity when going to a 4th axis.

And too much money for that machine.. Go to their website, its probably cheaper..

And for the record, in the world of Fadals, thats not an "older" Fadal, thats a "newer" Fadal.

Bobw said:

Comes up once a week or so.. Do a search.. And that is too much money for that machine, though if you go the Fadal route, the 28"Z is REALLY
handy, if not a necessity when going to a 4th axis.

And too much money for that machine.. Go to their website, its probably cheaper..

And for the record, in the world of Fadals, thats not an "older" Fadal, thats a "newer" Fadal.

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What would be a reasonable offer for this machine? I could definetely put that 28" of Z travel to use...

Jeremy63 said:

What would be a reasonable offer for this machine? I could definetely put that 28" of Z travel to use...

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I'd be comfy at 20k, maybe 25k or a bit more if its what you need... I was recently offered a 2001 6030 and I think it was a 2003
4525(one of the FX machines I believe) 40k package deal from a dealer (no 4th on either).

The 4th adds a bit to the value, but for some reason it doesn't seem to add all that much to Fadal's.. If you try and add a 4th,
even though its "prewired", you could be 5-8k into it with all the wiring, the boards and the 4th itself.. It has a chuck on it,
that's almost $400 right there.. The paint inside looks like it wasn't repainted and it wasn't pushed real hard. The Z ways
don't look scored up, that's good.


Since you don't seem overly familiar with Fadals. The control is rock solid stupid simple.. Menu driven, you tell the control what you want
to do, and it literally baby steps you through it.. If a 4 year old could read, they could setup and run the machine, it really is that simple.
Parameters are 3 very short pages of questions written in English. If you do want to add a 5th, you just need the wires and the boards (and a 5th), no options to add or buy, just turn it on. Parts are plentiful and comparatively dirt cheap from quite the number of sources.

They made a metric buttload of Fadals, and they were all basically the same from the late 80's into the 2000's.. Support is free and plentiful from
the parts suppliers and the tons of owners out there..

But it is a Fadal, its not a Mori, its not a Mazak.. Its never going to set a speed record, the rapids (wrong in the ad you posted) are not awe inspiring,
but adequate. The accelerations are pretty slow, you don't have to take the vise handles off. The tool changes will put you to sleep.. It does need
to be maintained.. If you buy one that you don't know the condition of, spend a few $100 and have new bellevilles and floater on hand when the machine
shows up, a spare set of belts and a few sets of thrust bearings.

It does have a REAL 15hp spindle, continuous, 22.5hp for 5 minutes I think it is.. 2 speeds, so you've got a TON of torque down low. I'm not overly
positive on the spindle, it is 10k, but I don't think its 100% duty cycle at 10k, I think its 100% at 8k.. I've never blown one up, though I do
have one that is getting a little pissy at me over here.

Maintain them, treat them well, talk to 'em once in a while and a Fadal will make you a lot of money.. You just need to realize it IS NOT a high end
machine, it is not a rocket, you aren't going to interpolate a bore within .0002" at 120ipm. Chip to Chip time IS NOT 2 seconds. That 28" of Z is
awesome, but it can get frustrating when you are changing tools WAY up there, and working in vises WAY the hell down there..

Jeremy63 said:

I think that Okuma is a bit steep on pricing, ecspecially for just my second machine.

I went on Ebay looking at used Doosans and was suprised at what I found... I had originally planned on buying new, ecspecially with learning a new control, but some of these deals are hard to turn down if they are solid .

OKUMA M56-V, 216, RENISHAW PROBING, ONLY 13 HOURS | eBay

USED DOOSAN MV-316L CNC MILL 27 TSC FANUC 3.16.2" VMC 59 HOURS DAEWOO | eBay

I'll be heading down in the direction of both of those machines fairly soon, so I could stop and look over them. Basically, is there any big things to look at on these machines that anyone knows about? If they are in good shape, I'm definetely going to consider buying one of them.

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I don't know anything about the Doosan machines, but 40k seems really cheap. Anyone have an idea of what that machine would sell for new?

Bobw,

I'll probably put in an offer if it's in as good of shape as it looks. Should be a solid machine by the sounds of it that'll treat me well for a good while. Thanks for all the advice with it.

Mike,

That's exactly what I was thinking. One problem I'm seeing is that everywhere I've read it seems like adding a 4th or 5th axis drive is quite an extensive and pricey process. I'd have to contact a dealer and see what all would be involved for the specific machine. Only other issue would be the z travel, but for that price I think I could work around it.