Looking for entry level VMC for prototyping and small production runs

Looking to add machining capabilities to our fabrication shop. We are looking for a small to midsize VMC mostly for prototyping and small production runs. We are new to machining so would need something user friendly. We have about a 50k budget for the machine including tools and whatever spare parts we need to start. We will be machining steel, some hardened, for the most part with some aluminum. Any suggestions on a good machine? Thanks in advance.

What brand of machines do the companies use that currently make your machined parts? That's where I would start.

What ever you buy make damm sure their is support and service very close by.

KT0311 said:

Looking to add machining capabilities to our fabrication shop. We are looking for a small to midsize VMC mostly for prototyping and small production runs. We are new to machining so would need something user friendly. We have about a 50k budget for the machine including tools and whatever spare parts we need to start. We will be machining steel, some hardened, for the most part with some aluminum. Any suggestions on a good machine? Thanks in advance.

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I can't talk money wise because of currency but the first thing I would look at is training from the dealer and service. Since you are new to machining these are going to be a big must for you.

I would suggest going direct to the dealers and asking them to keep an eye open for trade in machines from customers that are upgrading. Hopefully if they do get something it will be their brand and they can go through the machine for you to make sure all is in order and maybe even work out a service/training plan for you.

If by small production you are saying not more than 20 parts then maybe a toolroom style mill will work but I would try to rather get a fully enclosed machine with toolchanger as those two difference will probably make the toolroom style mill old in your eyes really quickly.

Your question is a little vague because size of parts and type of machining will make a big difference in the power or speed etc etc of the type of machine folks will suggest to you. I would suggest an older rock solid machine but many might frown at that because of your lack of experience on the machining side. I will also say that no matter what you think you will roughly need to spend on tooling to start up try to double it... Only once you really get going will you realise how great it would be to have an extra vise or double stations or a few more collet holders to make your life easier.

Does your budget include any CAD/CAM for programming and/or designing/drawing your parts? Something to think about, I'll let others chime in on what to look at as I don't know any of the free/dirt cheap cam packages. If you are not planning on using a CAD/CAM package, look at machines with conversational controls, depending on how simple your parts are...

What do you consider small?

When I worked in a power plant a 1/2-13 bolt was small.

I now work in aerospace research an 0-80 is small but not the smallest.

I always ask, can the part fit in a shoebox or a foot-locker?

I'll add that its not all about the cost today, its about the cost tomorrow,
and next year, and also 5 or 10 years down the line..

Support, Support, Support... Not just today, but also in the future.

Next year, or in 5 years, if you blow a board, will you be able to get
it... Will you be able to afford it.. Is the company going to say
"Sorry, we won't sell you the $300 part you need, but you can upgrade
for $10k".

KT0311 said:

Looking to add machining capabilities to our fabrication shop. We are looking for a small to midsize VMC mostly for prototyping and small production runs. We are new to machining so would need something user friendly. We have about a 50k budget for the machine including tools and whatever spare parts we need to start. We will be machining steel, some hardened, for the most part with some aluminum. Any suggestions on a good machine? Thanks in advance.

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To be honest,a 50k budget isn't enough if you're starting from scratch and have no tooling and no cad/cam software and no training. Tooling alone will cost you about 2-3k minimum.
UNLESS you find a steal of a used machine for dirt cheap.

What size parts do you consider small?

Also if no one has any machining back ground there count on more training to lrean the simple things. As others have said 50k is only going to get you a used machine/tooling/cad cam but if buying used you better lrean how to fix some stuff yourself because repair guys are 100 up a hour plus travel time. Also if used and is older machine make damm sure it has ALL MANUALS/ BACK UP PARMEMTERS/ ECT. or you will be screwed down the road. Also as been said find a tool changer and enclosed machine, open machines make one hell of a mess and changing tool one at a time will get old fast.!!! Their is sometimes deals with machines and tooling sometimes as a package!!

I don't see that the OP ever says "small parts". He says "small VMC" and "small production runs". Now, since he calls it a fab shop, I suspect his "small" is quite bigger than other folks's version of small.

I think you have quite the challenge, wanting a VMC for steel parts, ground-up for $50k. My experience bringing in a small VMC:

$5k for CAM (actually more than that but there is a wide variety of prices)
$5k for initial tooling
$5k for misc. startup stuff -- coolant, air lines, electrical, rigging

Now you have to buy the machine :-).

If you are going to rely on this machine to make your business's parts, you should think long and hard about a used off-brand machine. Off-brand can be a nightmare if you can't find a POST, no one knows how to start the machine up, get programs into it, etc. Of course, used anything can be a nightmare, or can be great, but who knows until it's too late .

Would strongly agree with BobW on support, not just for stuff breaking, but for the hand-holding you are very likely to need since you are new to machining. Buying from a dealer who will write some lead-in training into the contract is advisable.

Regards.

Mike

HAAS VF-2, under 5 years, trade-in, demo, etc. since they tend to have lots of options priced very low.
Best value, great service, best value retained.
Aka You can sell it for near what you paid for it- minus wear and tear.

Make a spreadsheet with costs and options for a pallet stacker, auto saw, materials racks, any finishing you might need like deburring, tumbling, painting, coating, anodising etc.
Lifting etc. if needed.

50k$ startup is fine, you end up with 100k$++ anyway, over time..
Price ISO40 toolholders, 24 of, and for each collets, drills, end mills, facemills, inserts for all, racks for all, reamers, surface plates, height gauges, vices, vices, vices..
parallels, .. gage pins, micrometers, calipers, dtis, probes, ISO40 toolchanging fixture, ..
coolant tank, drums for chips and swarf, materials handling for same, 70 kW electric lines for the machines, space for same, etc..
hazmat containers if needed,..
hauser etc- quality air compressor, of low noise and industrial-use rating..
air lines built for it .. fittings for same ..
industrial epoxy paint for the floor..
insurance (legal requirements), permits, inspections, workmans comp, etc..

It took us 200k€ to make a demo room (500 m sq2) for machine tools ... with no machines or tools etc..

Economics:
IF you pay now say 200$ each for set of widgets, qty say 2000 / year, 400 k /yr total,
AND You invest 50k$ total,
your self-made widgets will cost approx 3-400$ each for the next 10-15 years, until the initial investment is amortised, paid off, fixed expensively n times in the meanwhile.
OR you invest 200k$, the widgets cost == 80$ each, and the stuff is amortised in 4 years, +/-.

Way It Is.

Any nr here, and elsewhere, of people have made successful machine-shop businesses starting out with less than 50k$.
Your company, almost 100% certain, cannot do so or succeed at it *in terms of economics* for 50k$.

Almost-all who started from scratch skipped meals/payroll/taxes - You cannot. Workers and IRS and Insurance Will Get Paid.
Most skipped insurance/legal/hazmat stuff once or twice along the way until they could afford it - You cannot.
Most had issues with stacking, lifting, organising stuff until they had enough business - You cannot.
Way It Is.

Figure minimax 2 people of skills, == 100k$ total/yr, and amortising 300k investments (5 years) total for minimal productive/efficient shop ..
160k$ / yr, total.
Are you going to save that 160k$ on Your widgets ? Sure ? Risks ? Opportunity costs for 5 years (== 100-300k$ minimal on == 1.3M$ over 5 years) ?

I am NOT saying don´t do it, or it is a bad idea.
I AM saying, that like 99.x% of people, You probably do not have any numbers, any good numbers, any good plan with numbers, on the reality of what You hope to do.
Numbers are important.
Numbers lead to wealth, profits, promotions, success.

IF YOU cannot put YOUR numbers in a spreadsheet, YOU will fail, in economic terms.
Obviously, any successful biz can start an internal machine shop.. with economic lossses.. and sometimes it makes sense.
Lead times, IP, turnaround, process control, legal issues, legal liabilities, can or may all/any be much more valuable than costs.
And "losing / not gaining" == 160$ / yr - current costs paid, perhaps == 50k$/year, may not matter, in any semi-successful business.

Aka You might likely lose 50k$ / year doing an internal shop with 300k$ investment, or 150k$ / yr with an 50k$ investment, but both might still be a good choice !

Key:
You ARE NOT competing with cost-of-widgets made for You. Fallacy.
You ARE competing on being better, more efficient, more productive, skilled, qualified than the BEST contract manufacturer/jobshop in Your area of economic transport / total volume, per year.

..Vs any benefits (vs risks, liabilities, major or minor), from controlling Your own production.

I personally would not assume a position of authority/responsibility, for pay vs equity/profits, for less than 10k$/month, net.
There is a good reason for this, and a good reason I always get more than that, over time/results/whatever.

Make A Spreadsheet.
Would a bank fund this ?
If not, You probably don´t want to fund it either, unless internal values are high, to support the internal subsidies.

The Last Thing You should plan on is some "extra" profit from subbing out "extra time" on the machines.

This WILL be extra losses for You, because all the machine shops in Your area have over 1M$ in invested capacity/efficiency/processes/relationships/finances, and You simply cannot be economically viable.

So You can of course "sell" work at 50$ / unit while spending 80$ /unit.
But it is not a good business decision.

Check out Atrump with a Centroid control. They are available in several configurations that may fit your needs. Check out Mastercam as a software to produce programs.

Haas TM1P if all of your parts are less than 30" long. Upgrade to the 20 position toolchanger.
HSMWORKS from Autodesk on the monthly payment plan.
8 ER20 Collet Chucks
8 ER16 Collet Chucks
2" 45 degree Facemill
2 Collet Sets in each size
1 1/2" Albreicht drill chuck
2 866 Kurt Vises
Edge finders
Indicol and Dial Test Indicator
Ordinary mill clamping kit

This is enough to get you started. You won't need the full $50k up front if you buy the machine on a lease. This certainly isn't a hotrod setup, but it will let you get your feet wet. You'll know after a year or so what you want different in a machine... faster, more horsepower, longer travels etc. But this setup will get you making parts and it a handy machine to have in just about any shop.

Service and training for the Haas is usually close by, and between youtube and forums, you can figure out just about anything. Plus, with the Haas, it is easy to hire someone with experience.

G00 Proto said:

Haas TM1P if all of your parts are less than 30" long. Upgrade to the 20 position toolchanger.
HSMWORKS from Autodesk on the monthly payment plan.
8 ER20 Collet Chucks
8 ER16 Collet Chucks
2" 45 degree Facemill
2 Collet Sets in each size
1 1/2" Albreicht drill chuck
2 866 Kurt Vises
Edge finders
Indicol and Dial Test Indicator
Ordinary mill clamping kit

This is enough to get you started. You won't need the full $50k up front if you buy the machine on a lease. This certainly isn't a hotrod setup, but it will let you get your feet wet. You'll know after a year or so what you want different in a machine... faster, more horsepower, longer travels etc. But this setup will get you making parts and it a handy machine to have in just about any shop.

Service and training for the Haas is usually close by, and between youtube and forums, you can figure out just about anything. Plus, with the Haas, it is easy to hire someone with experience.

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I agree.

Except: Instead edge finders, I will invest in a 3D Haimer. If you have a lot of set-ups and programs, maybe you can consider the Renishaw probe and tool setter.

riabma77 said:

I agree.

Except: Instead edge finders, I will invest in a 3D Haimer. If you have a lot of set-ups and programs, maybe you can consider the Renishaw probe and tool setter.

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I thought that too, then I remembered that I broke two probes last year and I've been running Haas machines since about the first year they came out... I say let him spin the heads off of a drawer full of $8.00 edgefinders first, then he can move up to wiping out Haimer and Renishaw probes.

Public Service Announcement: I broke one Hamer Probe when I was sweeping in the back edge of a part on Op 3 and there was a slot big enough for the probe to fall into. Second probe got broken several months later when I sneezed at just the wrong time with the jog set at .100" Pure stupid both times.

G00 Proto said:

I thought that too, then I remembered that I broke two probes last year and I've been running Haas machines since about the first year they came out... I say let him spin the heads off of a drawer full of $8.00 edgefinders first, then he can move up to wiping out Haimer and Renishaw probes.

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Probe tip only breaks when you have no spare, and it gets lonely and sad. If you buy a few spares (like I did), then the spares will keep the active probe company and it won't break.

Regards.

Mike

I bought a 1995 Fanuc Robodrill for cheapish money. By the time I paid freight, tool holders, haimer, endmills, vises, etc I am into it close to $30K. Cam is free since I already have Solidworks. Using HSM Xpress. Not great but free and for what I do it works for now.
It would have been better to buy something with support from a LOCAL dealer. LCD screen went out. Would have cost $3000 from Fanuc for the parts to fix. But I fixed it myself for $40. Just figuring out the post processor and how to do tool offsets was a chore in itself. No one around to help and no manual. Took 3 moths to get the manual from Japan. Buy local and make sure you can get training and support. Its fun to learn how to do it on your own till you have a big job and a short timeline.

Donny

Fadal 4020. Seriously.

Parts are plentiful and dirt cheap. The machines are really easy to run. They'll hold better tolerances than you will in the first few years of machining.

If you're trying to bring manufacturing in house and need this mystical "support support support" then take that to its logical conclusion and shop your parts out. In house manufacturing is for people whose idea of a good friday night is a well documented manual and a tool set with no lost sizes.

The support people at the typical machinery dealer know FAR less than a guy who has been working on a particular machine for a few years and they cost a hell of a lot more.

I am new to CNC, and in a similar situation that you are in. I own a fab and race shop and used to do everything on manual equipment. I found a 99 Haas with a 10k spindle and relatively low hours for $13k in fantastic shape with under 2,000 spindle hours. Paint was still on the inside cabinet and I had Haas service records from the local rep for the life of the machine. I had another $2,500 in tooling from Maritool, $4k in tool holders, collets, and drill chucks, $800 on two used Kurt 3600v vises, 400 on a Haimer, and about 4k for a phase converter with wiring and some construction materials. Rigging was $1000.

I use Fusion 360 which is free and has an OK, albeit buggy CAD/CAM software package that is good enough for what I do.

All told, about $26k, but not the biggest, nor the most capable or rigid machine out there. The majority of our parts are aluminum, and it handles that just fine.