Loud vibration during radial load, quiet during axial load

Dangle_kt · Apr 22, 2017

I'm after a bit of internet diagnosis please.

IT'S a Haas Tm1, new to me, very low hours, and it works spot on.

But i have noticed a really loud vibration when the spindle is under radial load, but not axial...

The end mill (10mm carbide 3 flt into alu) at 4000rpm, interpolates in fine, but as soon as it starts to expand the pocket and put pressure on the side of the endmill the whole machine sounds like a fog horn is going off.

I have a video below.

Haas tm1 radial load noise - YouTube

Has anyone seen this before? Any idea what it might be?

I don't use the machine much, but as its in my garage I can't have it that loud as neighbours will complain or I'll only be able to run it when they are out at work so I'm going to have to sort it.

Cheers

Hazzert · Apr 22, 2017

Sounds like a haas to me

Jokes aside haas spindles aren't very complex, you have a couple sets or individual bearings and either a pulley arrangement or a direct drive to the motor.

If you place a DTI on something in the spindle is it sloppy? A couple thou deflection if you lean on it is normal but it should immediately return to zero.

It's going to be a bearing issue most likely. Head on over to diy.haas and give it your serial number and see what's available for parts, haas usually doesn't sell individual spindle parts outside drawbars do you may need to tear it apart and try and source your own bearings.

DMF_TomB · Apr 22, 2017

Dangle_kt said:
I'm after a bit of internet diagnosis please.

IT'S a Haas Tm1, new to me, very low hours, and it works spot on.

But i have noticed a really loud vibration when the spindle is under radial load, but not axial...

The end mill (10mm carbide 3 flt into alu) at 4000rpm, interpolates in fine, but as soon as it starts to expand the pocket and put pressure on the side of the endmill the whole machine sounds like a fog horn is going off.

I have a video below.

Haas tm1 radial load noise - YouTube

Has anyone seen this before? Any idea what it might be?

I don't use the machine much, but as its in my garage I can't have it that loud as neighbours will complain or I'll only be able to run it when they are out at work so I'm going to have to sort it.

Cheers

.
.
most times slowing rpm it is quieter. 4000 rpm ? try 400 rpm if quieter than try faster rpm til nose is loud enough

Hazzert · Apr 22, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
most times slowing rpm it is quieter. 4000 rpm ? try 400 rpm if quieter than try faster rpm til nose is loud enough

Are you screwing with him Tom? His machine is making noise while taking a cut so you suggest ~30 sfm in aluminum rather than replace the bearings. He's not running a 6" insert mill hanging out 30" ffs.

eaglemike · Apr 22, 2017

Make sure no chips on tool or spindle taper. What is runout on tool? Is tool sharp all over? What is rdial depth of cut during noise? Axial cut? If you use less radial depth on profiling tis machine will run fine. Check the other stuff tho.

deadlykitten · Apr 23, 2017

Dangle_kt said:
I don't use the machine much, but as its in my garage I can't have it that loud as neighbours will complain or I'll only be able to run it when they are out at work so I'm going to have to sort it

hy

chill out man, you can not hide from your neighbour all the time ... try to discuss this situation with him, or he is crazy, and you are afraid that he may go savage on you ?

i mean i hope you find understanding from your neighbour

kindly !

DMF_TomB · Apr 23, 2017

many machines and tool in tool holders and part in vise or fixture when above a certain metal removal rate per minute vibrate, chatter, make noise, etc
.
lowering rpm and feed reduces the metal removal rate and the chatter, noise etc is usually quieter. i often have to adjust depth, width of cut and feeds and speeds cause of vibration noise. it can be coming from machine itself, tool and or tool holder, part and or fixture / vise
.
feeds and speeds as well as depth and width of cut is adjusted to suit the tool in tool holder, current cnc machine used and part and fixture vise
.
many a time i have to slow things down not cause the cutting tool material cannot take it but cause i get too much vibration chatter. many machines have limits for example
1.0 cubic inches per minute of steel removed
10.0 cubic inches per minute of steel removed
...... same tool in 2 different machines or machining 2 different parts can have very different limits on feeds and speeds and depth and width of cuts before chatter vibration limits are reached
.
for example a end mill
when short length and in short tool holder on rigid part and machine might have 400 sfpm limit at .006 ipt feed rate
..... but a longer length tool in a longer tool holder on a not rigid part and or machine and or vise fixture might have a limit of 100 sfom at .002 ipt feed rate and a reduce depth and width of cut
.
i would not get hung up at using a certain sfpm if its causing problems. high rpm even cutting aluminum machines often sound like a router and are louder than cutting at slower rpm. wouldnt be the first time rpm is slowed cause its too noisy

Clive603 · Apr 23, 2017

Agree with Tom on this that first thing to try is changing speed. The really loud under load noises on anything with reasonable areas of sheet metalwork are often resonance effects. Doesn't take much to set such off so if changing the speed shifts things off resonance bringing the noise back to fairly normal levels and general cutting performance remains acceptable you know you are looking for something pretty subtle.

If you know, or can find someone who knows, about using the sound analysis capabilities of a PC or smart phone looking at the audio signature with different cutters and speeds may give some clues. For example if the resonance speed varies with number of cutting edges is probably cutter side of the spindle drive. If its pretty constant probably drive side. Not hard and fast rules but it gives you somewhere to start.

Clive

DMF_TomB · Apr 23, 2017

cutting a lot of aluminum fast almost always it sounds like a router and noise level is much much louder than cutting steel
.
like i said wouldnt be first time things are slowed cause it is too noisy

lowCountryCamo · Apr 23, 2017

To check for bearing failure, mount .0005 or .0001 DTI on head, not table. Clock the spindle Face and OD while prying on spindle face upwards and OD side to side with a wooden board or broom stick. By mounting DTI on Head you will eliminate movement from machine flex. You should have no more than a couple tenths deflection in both directions.

plastikdreams · Apr 23, 2017

Uh...That sounds normal to me. From the looks of it you are not taking much off at all, is this your first time machining something?

By normal I mean normal for that type of cut with that cutter at that rpm...vary the rpm and the pitch will change push the cutter, you need more ipm and more engagement...If it still not quiet enough... Helical interpolation.

Edit: forgot he was learning by watching nyccnc videos...derp

moonlight machine · Apr 23, 2017

Take a deeper cut at higher ipm. Lean on it a bit, lots of times that will help.

deadlykitten · Apr 23, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
...

hy Tom

nice rack ... that yellow one is the biggest

if somebody is not experienced, may ruin the cnc with it

please, i have a question : when you rough, what are your preferences ? bt50

i mean :
... a big tool will finish faster, but will force the cnc
... a tiny tool will take too much time
... far as i know, on bt50 is recomended to use at high specs a tool not greater than o60 ... o80

when you rough a lot, but also you wish to take care of the cnc, what tool do you use ?

do you preffer low depth + high rpm ? or viceversa ?

do you target a specific load on the spindle ?

do you use a calculator so to preview chips_volume/time_unit ?

do you preffer tools with more teeth, so to have a continous cut ?

i will soon start some roughing, and i thought to ask you for an opinion

kindly !

DMF_TomB · Apr 24, 2017

deadlykitten said:
hy Tom nice rack ... that yellow one is the biggest if somebody is not experienced, may ruin the cnc with it

please, i have a question : when you rough, what are your preferences ? bt50

i mean :
... a big tool will finish faster, but will force the cnc
... a tiny tool will take too much time
... far as i know, on bt50 is recomended to use at high specs a tool not greater than o60 ... o80

when you rough a lot, but also you wish to take care of the cnc, what tool do you use ?

do you preffer low depth + high rpm ? or viceversa ?

do you target a specific load on the spindle ?

do you use a calculator so to preview chips_volume/time_unit ?

do you preffer tools with more teeth, so to have a continous cut ?

i will soon start some roughing, and i thought to ask you for an opinion kindly !

.
i record the maximum each tool in tool holder can take and note depth and width of cut, Excel can calculate cubic inches per minute removed and a machinabilty rating for each material is used. machinability rating is how many cubic inches removed per minute per hp.
for example in cast iron it can be 0.8 to 1.6 cubic inches removed per minute per hp
aluminum about 2.0 to 6.0 . some cutters types use less hp. once i use different cutters at higher hp you get a ideal by the noise what the machine can take
the tool in tool holder can take
the part in vise and or fixture can take
certain machines have limits for example a Series 1 Bridgeport can remove about 1.0 cubic inches per minute of 1018 steel roughly much more than that the vibration become excessive. thats a machine limit more than a tool limit
.
in general i use a bigger tool like a 6" dia facemill at up to 0.2 depth of cut at about 5" width of cut at up to 55 ipm feed. But often a part and or fixture will vibrate too much from cutting forces. i can lower depth of cut to 0.125 but on certain parts it makes sense to use a smaller facemill like 4" dia
.
obviously if i drill a 2.5" hole over 6" deep and i want to circular mill it bigger i cannot easily use bigger than 2.5" carbide insert mill. then there is long tool holder length like 18" long where even a 2" dia end mill will vibrate unless light cuts taken and moderate feeds and speeds. tool dia and length and tool holder length often decide what size tool to use. for example finish large surface area might require a 2.5" dia facemill rather than 6.0" dia facemill cause of flatness tolerance which is easier to hold to .0003" with small dia facemill
.
many if not most machining i do the tool in tool holder is 9 to 18" long just to reach. the 2" dia roughing end mill with 10" flute length runs at low feed cause at that length it cannot be pushed very hard.

IAmAlex · Apr 24, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
.
i record the maximum each tool in tool holder can take and note depth and width of cut, Excel can calculate cubic inches per minute removed and a machinabilty rating for each material is used. machinability rating is how many cubic inches removed per minute per hp.
for example in cast iron it can be 0.8 to 1.6 cubic inches removed per minute per hp
aluminum about 2.0 to 6.0 . some cutters types use less hp. once i use different cutters at higher hp you get a ideal by the noise what the machine can take
the tool in tool holder can take
the part in vise and or fixture can take
certain machines have limits for example a Series 1 Bridgeport can remove about 1.0 cubic inches per minute of 1018 steel roughly much more than that the vibration become excessive. thats a machine limit more than a tool limit
.
in general i use a bigger tool like a 6" dia facemill at up to 0.2 depth of cut at about 5" width of cut at up to 55 ipm feed. But often a part and or fixture will vibrate too much from cutting forces. i can lower depth of cut to 0.125 but on certain parts it makes sense to use a smaller facemill like 4" dia
.
obviously if i drill a 2.5" hole over 6" deep and i want to circular mill it bigger i cannot easily use bigger than 2.5" carbide insert mill. then there is long tool holder length like 18" long where even a 2" dia end mill will vibrate unless light cuts taken and moderate feeds and speeds. tool dia and length and tool holder length often decide what size tool to use. for example finish large surface area might require a 2.5" dia facemill rather than 6.0" dia facemill cause of flatness tolerance which is easier to hold to .0003" with small dia facemill
.
many if not most machining i do the tool in tool holder is 9 to 18" long just to reach. the 2" dia roughing end mill with 10" flute length runs at low feed cause at that length it cannot be pushed very hard.

I may be fairly new around here, but I find it interesting that you always manage to slowly derail a thread and make it about yourself. I, as many others I'm sure, can appreciate the complexity of the work you do. I am sure that you have plenty of knowledge and experience to contribute. But posting about your 50'' long drills and 6'' facemills in a thread about a TM-1 is not all that productive or helpful.

Mtndew · Apr 24, 2017

IAmAlex said:
I may be fairly new around here, but I find it interesting that you always manage to slowly derail a thread and make it about yourself. I, as many others I'm sure, can appreciate the complexity of the work you do. I am sure that you have plenty of knowledge and experience to contribute. But posting about your 50'' long drills and 6'' facemills in a thread about a TM-1 is not all that productive or helpful.

You're absolutely right.

Mtndew · Apr 24, 2017

Dangle_kt said:
I'm after a bit of internet diagnosis please.

IT'S a Haas Tm1, new to me, very low hours, and it works spot on.

But i have noticed a really loud vibration when the spindle is under radial load, but not axial...

The end mill (10mm carbide 3 flt into alu) at 4000rpm, interpolates in fine, but as soon as it starts to expand the pocket and put pressure on the side of the endmill the whole machine sounds like a fog horn is going off.

I have a video below.

Haas tm1 radial load noise - YouTube

Has anyone seen this before? Any idea what it might be?

I don't use the machine much, but as its in my garage I can't have it that loud as neighbours will complain or I'll only be able to run it when they are out at work so I'm going to have to sort it.

Cheers

I'm unable to watch the video currently, but just a thought... have you checked your retention knob to see if it came loose? Is the drawbar pulling the tool tight enough into the spindle?

DMF_TomB · Apr 24, 2017

same principles apply and i mentioned a bridgepot limited to 1 cubic inch per minute removal rate in 1018 steel. there is limit for aluminum too
.
there is machine limits
part and vise fixture limits
tool in tool holder limits.
.
and i am not the type to say a 3/8 end mill is the biggest end mill i use

tay2daizzo8 · Apr 24, 2017

Sounds fine...but your neighbors some earmuffs

G00 Proto · Apr 24, 2017

That doesn't sound too bad for a TM1. Lot's of time's it is the sheet metal enclosure that causes some of the resonance. Buy earplugs, and turn that spindle up to 6k... I know it is "permanently" set to a max of 4k, but a little googlefu will get it to run 6k and you'll be happier.

Loud vibration during radial load, quiet during axial load

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