M3/M4 during speed/phase sync

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

I've mentioned this before, but on our Doosan when the spindles are sync'd in any combination of speed/phase/both it will only rotate clockwise (from the perspective of the main spindle).

Issuing M4 behaves exactly as if I'd entered M3. MDI'ing M4 after the spindles are already turning results in waiting for FIN until I hit reset.

I've worked around this up til now, but it continues to be a nuisance, as I can obviously only use right hand tooling during sync'd rotation.

Does anyone have any ideas of how to change this or what to look for regarding allowing M4 during sync?

Or is this normal behaviour that can't be changed? This is the only sub spindle lathe I've ever used so I have no frame of reference...

Doosan S310SMLY
Fanuc 18i-TB

litlerob1 · Mar 12, 2018

Shot in the dark Gregor; I'm guessing that after the spindles synch. M4 sends a signal to one or the other, that is why it waits. I would try and figure out a way to send the signal to both simultaneously. Maybe not even a spindle direction, but like a reverse direction for both. My first thought was that all of it needs to be on one line of code right, but there would have to be an M-code that wasn't left/right specific, just reverse all.

This is one of the things that makes it hard to love Fansuc, MTB specific and generation specific. Even the biker from Vancouver doesn't know them all, and I thought he knew everything about everything.

R

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

litlerob1 said:
Shot in the dark Gregor; I'm guessing that after the spindles synch. M4 sends a signal to one or the other, that is why it waits. I would try and figure out a way to send the signal to both simultaneously. Maybe not even a spindle direction, but like a reverse direction for both. My first thought was that all of it needs to be on one line of code right, but there would have to be an M-code that wasn't left/right specific, just reverse all.

This is one of the things that makes it hard to love Fansuc, MTB specific and generation specific. Even the biker from Vancouver doesn't know them all, and I thought he knew everything about everything.

R

As I understand it, when the spindles are sync'd one is the master and the other is the slave. Accordingly you can only control one of them, and the other just follows along. Idk if this is accurate...

If I MDI M43 (speed sync on) then it will accept M3 or M4, but M103 (sub cw) or M104 (sub ccw) waits for FIN forever.

So to be clear, if I MDI:

M43;
M4;

It behaves exactly the same as if I'd entered:

M43;
M3;

If I put M43 M4 M104 for example it only reads the M104 (as expected).

I can't find any other relevant M codes in the manual.

As an aside, M45 (phase sync) opens the sub chuck automatically as well, which is fine if it's for a transfer but that might not always be the case. Guessing a ladder edit is in order if I want to change this one.

litlerob1 · Mar 12, 2018

gregormarwick said:
If I put M43 M4 M104 for example it only reads the M104 (as expected). Tried M43 M4 M103; right?

As the direction of rotation is based on the perspective of the Operator. Facing the Main and entering M3 actually turns it CCW (anti for you), so would it apply to the sub as well? Or is that already worked out in the ladder?

Ox · Mar 12, 2018

This must be a function of the ladder.
We have 2 or 3 fella's here that say "If'n y'all have any issues with a Doosan - hollar!" but yet - like you say - you've posted this before...

???

OK, for a werk-around, how bout y'all forego the synch code? Can you clamp on otherwise?

Is this a timing issue? If so - can you time it out in C? Does your sub have C?

If you can get it timed and clamped with dead spindles, then you can forget the synch, and just fire M4 and the sub should just spin along free (unless they put some monitor line in the ladder to prevent that too...).

You will git the support and all, just no live power*. The Con side of this is that you likely won't be able to brake the sub to twist off a nub, and/or your sub will likely not be able to be controlled untill you idle to a stop. You can control this a bit by slowing the spindle down just before cut-off - ass_u_ming that _ that is what you are dooing...

I have never ran a Doosan, but I have seen them (and Rizo) at the shows....

But I doo run Fanuc lathes every day.

* If your sub is clamping on a small and delicate D, you may need to ramp slowly or - step it up slowly... ???

-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

rainman · Mar 12, 2018

How about synching them with the main spindle running M4 instead of M3? Or did I miss something and you tried that?

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

litlerob1 said:
As the direction of rotation is based on the perspective of the Operator. Facing the Main and entering M3 actually turns it CCW (anti for you), so would it apply to the sub as well? Or is that already worked out in the ladder?

Same thing - only reads the last m code.

Ox said:
This must be a function of the ladder.
We have 2 or 3 fella's here that say "If'n y'all have any issues with a Doosan - hollar!" but yet - like you say - you've posted this before...

???

OK, for a werk-around, how bout y'all forego the synch code? Can you clamp on otherwise?

Is this a timing issue? If so - can you time it out in C? Does your sub have C?

If you can get it timed and clamped with dead spindles, then you can forget the synch, and just fire M4 and the sub should just spin along free (unless they put some monitor line in the ladder to prevent that too...).

You will git the support and all, just no live power*. The Con side of this is that you likely won't be able to brake the sub to twist off a nub, and/or your sub will likely not be able to be controlled untill you idle to a stop. You can control this a bit by slowing the spindle down just before cut-off - ass_u_ming that _ that is what you are dooing...

This Doosan is a bit of an inbetweener - 2006, Doosan Mecatec, newer than the old blue and gray ones, but before the change to Doosan Infracore. Agent in the UK has changed at least once since this machine was new. I can get spares for it, probably could get support if I pushed hard enough and figured out who to ask, but I expect that to be a bit of a runaround that I'd rather avoid...

Case in hand, I have a longish hollow part that is machined ID and OD, but needs support for a few features on the OD. The bore is too big for a live centre, and there are tight concentricity tolerances between the OD and ID so I need to rough everything and then do all the finishing in one setup. So I want to turn a big dead centre in the sub, then offer it up to the part with torque skip with the spindles sync'd. All good apart from I don't have right hand tools on hand for some of the features that I want to machine with the part supported. I could probably do the same without the spindles sync'd but the sub has a bit of inertia to overcome and I don't want it to skid. I could also go and buy right hand tools and get on with it.

But that's just this case, not the first time it's got in my way, and it would be good to find a solution.

rainman said:
How about synching them with the main spindle running M4 instead of M3? Or did I miss something and you tried that?

If I sync with the main already running CCW, it reverses and runs CW.

rainman · Mar 12, 2018

gregormarwick said:
If I sync with the main already running CCW, it reverses and runs CW.

That sucks. You would think you could sync in either direction.

Ox · Mar 12, 2018

Can you not use a "center plug" to use on your part so that you can just use a reg live center?

IDK if "Center PLug" is a real term. I prolly just made it up, but it would just be a slip fit step-plug (cap) to push into the part that would have a center on the other side. It would be part/job specific.

----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

rainman said:
That sucks. You would think you could sync in either direction.

Exactly!

Ox said:
Can you not use a "center plug" to use on your part so that you can just use a reg live center?

IDK if "Center PLug" is a real term. I prolly just made it up, but it would just be a slip fit step-plug (cap) to push into the part that would have a center on the other side. It would be part/job specific.

Yes I could, and I do that pretty regularly on some of the bigger parts we do. But it's manual intervention that's only required because of a (perceived?) shortcoming of the machine. It shouldn't be necessary, and we are short of hands around here at the moment...

I call them "end caps"

Ox · Mar 12, 2018

I understand that.

Is it possible that your synch code is not exactly just "synch", but possibly "Sych 3", and maybe you forgot that, and always thought that it was a simply "synch"? When maybe there is a "synch 4" code that you didn't know about?

Grasping at straws here...

That sucks to have poor support on a 2006 machine!

---------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

Ox said:
Is it possible that your synch code is not exactly just "synch", but possibly "Sych 3", and maybe you forgot that, and always thought that it was a simply "synch"? When maybe there is a "synch 4" code that you didn't know about?

Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure what you mean...

Currently I have speed sync (M43) which makes the sub sync to the speed of the main, and phase sync (M45) which syncs the orientation as well as the speed. I think this is pretty normal but...

I'm not going to accuse anyone of giving me poor support at this stage, as I really haven't persued it properly...

TeachMePlease · Mar 12, 2018

gregormarwick said:
Could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure what you mean...

Currently I have speed sync (M43) which makes the sub sync to the speed of the main, and phase sync (M45) which syncs the orientation as well as the speed. I think this is pretty normal but...

I'm not going to accuse anyone of giving me poor support at this stage, as I really haven't persued it properly...

Do you have an M44? Just taking a shot that maybe M43 is Sync in M3, and possibly M44 is Sync in M4....

Ox · Mar 12, 2018

Yep - by that logic - it sounds like there should be an M44 that makes 100% sense what you are getting.

--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2018

TeachMePlease said:
Do you have an M44? Just taking a shot that maybe M43 is Sync in M3, and possibly M44 is Sync in M4....

Thanks, but unfortunately not.

I should have listed in the first post:

M42 speed sync off
M43 speed sync on
M44 phase sync off
M45 phase sync on

Ox · Mar 12, 2018

44 on and 45 off are as bass akwards as I have ever seen any M codes..

I'm sure that you play with those two all day long and know that there isn't any wiggle room in their daffynation?
[most] Any Mxx5 that I have ever seen stops a spindle of some sorts.

And M41 gets you ???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

litlerob1 · Mar 12, 2018

Ox said:
And M41 gets you ???

---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

And, what is M40?

gregormarwick · Mar 13, 2018

Ox said:
I'm sure that you play with those two all day long and know that there isn't any wiggle room in their daffynation?

Not that I know of, or have figured out yet. Pretty simple and set in stone.

litlerob1 said:
And, what is M40?

M41 cancels M31 (spindle interlock override for running with the chuck open (bar feed, pull, transfer etc.)

M40 is not listed in the manual.

If interested, I've attached a list of valid m-codes from the manual, minus some that apply to options that aren't installed...

Looking through the manual this morning there is a keep relay to set whether the sub chuck opens on phase sync, so that's one problem down!

I do appreciate all the ideas so far, thanks.

gregormarwick · Mar 13, 2018

So, had a quick look through the ladder and there are separate rungs for CW and CCW when sync'd. And what's more, they do activate correctly depending on whether you use M3 or M4.

But still the spindles only rotate CW...

Could this be a parameter on the Fanuc side??

Ox · Mar 13, 2018

More likely another Keep Relay?

That's the threshold where I can follow along, but not lead real well.

---------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

M3/M4 during speed/phase sync

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