Fadal 4020 : prelimenary research.

Hi all,

Posting in order to get a bit of advise - any suggestions welcome.

Thank you for your time & input, in advance.

So after quite a bit of research, it looks like a fadal 4020 extended-z is the machine for the job. Capacity is the driving factor here, not speed/production rates.

The IDEAL purchase so far would be:​

Looking to keep the initial cost of the machine down as low as possible. I have the time and means to troubleshoot, but limited capitol.

Also, what sources would ya'll recommend checking out for a machine?

Wagner

Do not unless you really like pain

Looking to keep the initial cost of the machine down as low as possible. I have the time and means to troubleshoot, but limited capitol.

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Limited capitAl, but you want to buy a machine that has probably the simplest, and most well supported control
on the face of the planet... Not to mention just about the cheapest parts you can find for any machine tool..

And then rip the control out and put a new one in..

And the point of doing that is.....??????

Seconding what Bobw said...the Fadal control is very easy/cheap to support. If you are doing something like production high speed surfacing where you need extremely fast feed rate continuous 3 axis toolpathing it falls down compared to modern machines, but would some homebrew system be any better? Besides, from your info it doesn't sound like that is too relevant to your application.

Thank ya'll for the reply.

I figured a machine with control issues would sell for a deficit - which I could remedy by installing tech available today... sounds like this is not the way to go.

Only 2-axis tool-paths.

Fadal controls are so simple and parts so available that it may very well be cheaper and easier to repair a busted control back to original Fadal specs than to do any control conversion. You can also swap boards to newer versions in the process and potentially gain some speed, interface QoL improvements and/or memory. ITSCNC has provided parts and advice for me when I have replaced boards. There is info in the fadal mainenance manuals about which board versions are compatible with each other.

There are also a couple Fadal-specific control retrofits out there designed to directly replace the original boards (supposedly very quick to install and backwards compatible with Fadal G-code). Calmotion is one but there are a couple other companies too IIRC. I'd investigate those way before I ever considered retrofitting with some DIY system.

twmcree said:

Thank ya'll for the reply.

I figured a machine with control issues would sell for a deficit - which I could remedy by installing tech available today... sounds like this is not the way to go.

Only 2-axis tool-paths.

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They don't really have control issues.. And if they do, its so cheap and easy to fix..
Compared to other machine tools.

You could pretty much replace every single board in the machine for the cost of gutting
it and swapping controls.

And like Carbonbl said, there are several places that sell upgraded guts, and its pretty much plug
and play with what is already there.. Card cage, wiring, motors, power supplies etc...

10 4.

The mesa i/o's can be hooked directly to the existing servo & spindle drives, etc.. it is just a matter of checking which signal needs routed where.. Pretty much anything i/o on a fadal can be patched through mesa boards and controlled with linuxcnc. ... At this point, I reckon cost will dictate the plan of action.

Where would ya'll reccomend checking for a used machine?

twmcree said:

10 4.

The mesa i/o's can be hooked directly to the existing servo & spindle drives, etc.. it is just a matter of checking which signal needs routed where.. Pretty much anything i/o on a fadal can be patched through mesa boards and controlled with linuxcnc. ... At this point, I reckon cost will dictate the plan of action.

Where would ya'll reccomend checking for a used machine?

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So have a look at the control cabinet here:



Every one of those wires controls something important, and to retrofit the machine you're going to have to trace every one, replace bits, wire in your new control and then come up with PLC logic for controlling all the relevant parts.

I am very familiar with Fadals, having pulled mine completely apart to rebuild it. I am pretty experienced with electronics, I work professionally as a programmer, and I have used LinuxCNC on multiple homebrew projects... Even with all that I still would *dread* doing a control retrofit on a VMC. Yes I could get it to work, but it would be a total pain in the ass and would likely take months to get it 100%.

On the other hand I have seen Fadals in working condition go for as little as $1500 each. Mechanically rebuilding a Fadal with worn ballscrews/thrust bearings/spindle is simple as hell and something I would much rather do over trying to resurrect a completely dead machine.

I agree with the others. Save your money, bide your time and find a bargain on a working machine, then run it as-is.

Setup alerts on your local Kijiji/Craigslist and wait at least a few weeks, you might be surprised what pops up.

aarongough said:

Yes I could get it to work, but it would be a total pain in the ass and would likely take months to get it 100%.

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That's the problem - nobody ever puts in the amount of work it takes to get it working 100%. As soon as axis motion is achieved retrofitters really lose interest, especially since most of the time this is their only machine and the need to make chips (or the novelty of the whole thing) overwhelms the need for a working toolchanger, interlock, or whatever else.

I had a guy tell me once that he didn't bother wiring up the toolchanger on his retrofit Fadal because he could feed tools faster than the toolchanger could change them. I think he was missing the point..

OP, if you go down the retrofit route, you'll end up with scrap. Just buy a Fadal and run the Fadal control.

10-4. Looks like a pretty reputable post - appreciate it, aarongough.

Sounds like a winner to me.

Fadals have been retrofitted. Theirs somebody here who has posted and has done a retro with Dynamotion controls using the original servos I beleive.

A friend of mine has retrofitted a Fadal with new AC servos on the ATC/Spindle/X/Y and z axis. He did it because he could, the same reason people climb Everest. He was able to write (in C I believe) all the code to get the ATC and other functions to work. The machine is now a lot more accurate when contouring at 250ipm then it was before. BUT the machine was sitting in the corner owing him nothing, and not being used. He has a Hardinge V1000 and 2 other Fadals making parts. He had the desire and the imagination to do the project. Most people here don't. I didn't ask him if he'd do it again.

Getting the axis to work in Linuxcnc is not that hard, it's getting the ATC, chiller, hi'lo to work that's going to be a challenge. There are plenty of people over in the Linuxcnc forum who will work hard to help you, but time wise for what your trying to do it doesn't make sense.

Don't take this the wrong way, if you had done at most an evenings research on fadal controls you would have found out lots of info on ungrading fadal controls, from say -2 to -4, or -4 to -5. It would have lead you to fadalcnc.com and itscnc.com. Both sell boards, complete control upgrades and are very good with technical info. I believe ITS is the original manufacturer of fadal boards, and you would have seen individual boards aren't that expensive. I've been thru 2 motherboards on my Makino with 0M control, it was $2k each time. I'd hate to think what it is now. The only way it would cost $2k to fix a fadal control is somebody fired at RPG into the cabinet. So avoid fadals from Iraq/Syria/South central LA

There are at least 3 after market upgrade systems availible in the $7-8k range. They get more expensive if you have to add 4th and 5th axis capabilities.

Personally I'd be more worried about the spindle and turcite then the control. The controls are easy to fix, the other parts more expensively and time consuming.

I have a boxway 4020. The ways are in good shape, the x-axis turcite isn't. If I did it all over again I'd get a linear way 4020, the reason being if the linear rails/slides go to hell, it's a relatively cheap and easy fix. replacing the turcite is going to be a f'ing pain in the arse, that's how my buddy who has done a few describes it. I've spoken to one of the Fadal family members, his opinion the later linear way 4020's were some of the best machines they ever made.

I'll add further insult to injury, any research would show that a lot of fadals go at auction for next to nothing,

Grasshopper you need to do more research.

Thanks for the reply triumph... ya'lls criticism is helping me grow - I am still trying to get my bearings in this field [and life?]. keep it comin.

Honestly, when I initially started doing research the thought of replacing the boards didn't cross my mind.. which (thanks to ya'll) now sounds ridiculously naive and impractical, due to the fact that the machines capabilities are required to make it to the next step - machine is a means to an end, not an end.

What later years was the 'Fadal family member' referring to when he spoke of linear ways? What years would you consider worthy of purchase regarding 4020A's?

For the record, will you please quantify 'next to nothing'?
--I've seen older 4020HT extended z's for around 8k. one was removed off craigslist a couple of weeks ago from orange county. Is this the price range (6k-10k) that I should be looking for?

Yes sir, definitely have a ways to go before I feel comfortable sticking my neck [wallet] out there.

thanks again,
W

Speedie,

thank you for taking the time to post 'Speedie's Fadal reality checklist (pre 2014)' back in 2014.

twmcree said:

What later years was the 'Fadal family member' referring to when he spoke of linear ways? What years would you consider worthy of purchase regarding 4020A's?

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Not sure, later the better I would think, I don't know if they used better rails/carriages on newer machines. The Fadalcnc.com site shows 2 different part nos for rails ($1590) there's no description of the parts, so I can't tell what the difference is. An e-mail might get an answer from them. On a Fadal condition is more important than age.

twmcree said:

For the record, will you please quantify 'next to nothing'?

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There was a lightly attended auction about a year ago where 2 3016 Fadals (i know not 4020's) went for $2.5k each. That’s not going to happen every auction, but I’ve been to other auctions where I’ve seen some very good machines like Mori MV-40/55’s go for $4-5k. It’s all about being in the right place at the right time.

Private sale I wouldn't expect to pay more than $10k for a mint 4020 around here. Dealers would be $10-20+.

I paid too much for mine, but I didn’t know any better at the time, but it’s made decent money so far, for not much in the way of maintenece.(bellevilles/floater/lube units/leadscrew coupling). I still was better off getting mine when I did, then say for instance waiting 4-6 months for a cheaper/better one to come along, I average about $2k/week on that machine, so wasting time looking for a cheaper machine doesn’t pay off in the long run.

triumph406 said:

wasting time looking for a cheaper machine doesn’t pay off in the long run.

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sounds like wisdom. noted.

thank you for the explanations.

Personally I think a 4020a would be what I would want if I could find one for a good deal. I have ended up doing a lot of plate work and when the money allows I’ll probably be looking for something like a 6030. But the idea of a linear rail machine seems better then the turcite that may wear out.

Im the guy with the Fadal 4020 running Dynomotion control and im very happy with it. Everything works as a proper VMC now, toolchanger works, verifys every step when changing tools, rigid taps, changes gears properly, added a handled mpg, spindle chiller tied into controller etc etc.

Issac338 is right, alot of people do give up and never get them working 100%. It is a ton of work to do it properly, hundreds of hours of work. I actually bought my fadal partly converted to current control. Axes were moving and spindle was turning and that was it. The previous owner left it in that state. I built my own control panel, connected all the inputs and outputs and wrote the C programming to control all the other functions. I got it for dirt cheap as no real machine shop wanted a machine with homemade control with no toolchanger, and nobody interested in DIY controls had a shop big enough for a 4020 sized machine.

The Fadals are good and bad to retrofit. Bad news is they dont break, and when they do they are cheap to fix as people have said. So finding a good machine with bad control is very unlikely. But if somehow you did they are very easy to retrofit compared to other machines. You can easily connect a breakout board to the existing power distribution board and control almost every function extremely easily with the original solid state relays, fuses and wiring. I have some wiring notes, if you go ahead with it message me for more info.

mmurray70 said:

I have some wiring notes, if you go ahead with it message me for more info.

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Thank you for offering up your wiring notes.

Looks like the plan is going to be to get a machine that is already running and use as is.