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make the jump to HMC with palletts or stick with VMC

pcasanova

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
vacaville ca
We've hit a crossroads and seeing if there is justifications of going to HMC's or stick with our old VMC and upgrade a few of them. Currently we pretty much run 24/7 some weekends and have about 14VMC's. We average about 3-4 people per shift on the line. Has anyone in a similar situation made the jump into HMC's and palletts?
 
We've hit a crossroads and seeing if there is justifications of going to HMC's or stick with our old VMC and upgrade a few of them. Currently we pretty much run 24/7 some weekends and have about 14VMC's. We average about 3-4 people per shift on the line. Has anyone in a similar situation made the jump into HMC's and palletts?

Whats your workload like?
Average part order?
Average part repeat or one time?
Skill level of the guys running the place now?

If you have production that repeats I'd say 1 horizontal would replace atleast 2 verticals just in spindle uptime alone.
 
Whats your workload like?
Average part order?
Average part repeat or one time?
Skill level of the guys running the place now?

If you have production that repeats I'd say 1 horizontal would replace atleast 2 verticals just in spindle uptime alone.

workloads are pretty much 100% if machine goes down the shop starts scrambling on trying to move things around and trying to keep up. it's the same product over and over, but there are about 5 different setups, but 1 op might take 3 minutes and another 12 per part, so nothing finishes same time so some machines sit wating for the other. skill level sucks, mostly temps with the supervisors having some knowledge but even they still look at you like a cow looking at a train coming at it when you ask them what happened.

So that being said, I know letting them loose is looking for trouble, but I want to get it setup so they aren't doing anything except changing parts on and off a tombstone, tools would be set with a setter and macro (no missed decimal points or fat fingered typing). Like you said spindle uptime. currently every machine is pretty much setup to do 1 op, I want every machine to be able to do every op. machine finishes, it's not waiting for another to do the next step, go get another pallet from another and start. the other plus I'm seeing is the indexing the pallet at different angles and being able to do the 2 ops on the same fixture. and one of the biggest will be able to run lights out on the weekends (certain ops) and get rid of the midnight shift (hopefully the swing also). and thats what I would like to know if what i'm thinking will work and if someone did do it to say "keep dreaming didn't work for us" or "did exactly what your thinking".
 
if it was me I would get some paper and a pin ... write down the cycle time for each machine ,,, then watch the guys work and write down when they start the cycle on each machine for a few hours ,,, that is what I did on my self and I soon found out that me running 3 VMC`s at a time my spindle time was only at about 20% on each machine ,,, meaning my over all spindle time with 3 mills running was only at 60% , I was shocked to find out it was that low, even as a mostly one man shop I plan to buy a HMC this year. I`m just wasting a lot of time walking between machines and feel spending most of my time at one HMC would really pay off FAST.
 
We don't know your parts. But with that many hours and spindles runnin' I'm sure a HMC or two(or three) will fit right in.

If you ever go into a bar or restaurants and they pull the gun out for a soda, thats 90% gonna be us.

And I'm looking at dmg-mori. There made 20 minutes away from us in Davis.
And I don't know if the new ownership would be willing to plunk down 3 mil on a line.
So was also thinking the linear pool and starting with a couple machines and proving what they
can do. But I'm assuming its modular so we can add 1 or 2 a year and not be forced into
do it all now or your stuck with what you get.
 
HMCs might be great for you - especially if you opt for a pallet pool. Get a HMC with a 6 pallet pool, good fixtures, and you can have operators keeping those going around the clock with only part-swapping needed. It's expensive. Tooling columns, fixtures, toolholders and tooling. But if you're looking at constant production like this, you might be able to easily see the ROI.
 
Midaco Corporation

I think there can be a lot done to utilize spindle up time with vertical machine centers. Problem is they rarely have the tool magazine capacity the horizontals do... that's one area where horizontals really shine on efficiency.
 
From what you've already said, HMC with a pool is right up your alley. There aren't very many more efficient methods of volume milling production if you don't want to invest in some robotics - and even that isn't going to get you the spindle up time that a HMC can give you if set up properly. There is a reason you walk across the top of a 200' long x 20' deep pallet pool at Mazak in Ky when you tour the facility. (Yea, Big pallets, but still.....). For a nestable production part, set up correctly, you aren't going to beat a HMC with a VMC.

The HMC will beat it on part density per pallet and non productive time almost every time. You can have 1-12 nests of parts on a single HMC pallet, depending on the pallet size and part size. For a small part like you describe, you might get 10 parts tall by 12 sides and have 120 parts on a single tombstone of a 600 mm machine. Divide your pallet change (say 20 seconds) time by 120 and your load time becomes basically negligible at 0.125 sec/part (provided your operators can load them within the cycle time of the machine). This is where HMC's really shine.
 
The place I retired from bought into cells a long time ago. The experience there was a 2 machine cell on ~20 pallets easily out-produced 7-8 standalone verticals. Depending on mix of work 2 or sometimes 3 workers would tend the cell as opposed to 7-8 while using verticals. The last 2 machine cell installed there replaced 5 standalone 2 pallet horizontals and still had a little extra capacity. It is not just buying cells that makes that work though. We had to make improvements in the processes in pretty all other areas of the shop to make it all work.
 
It's quite long winded...please bear with me as I kept adding as I typed.


The Horizontal cells are quite capital intensive, so keep that in mind when kicking it around. I would follow DD's advise and do some times studies to see how much time is being spent in set up, part change out/loading, etc. to see how much your actual spindle time uptime really is, of course, some controls will have this available. I think you will be amazed how little spindle uptime you actually use. Use this information to help calculate your ROI. Makino has the best webinars on looking at horizontal cells that I have found, you just have to register, and they generally won't throw the hard-sell at you either.

When exploring the pallet pool, make sure that it is really expandable (some small pallet pools are NOT expandable), and that the machine(s) you are considering will marry up to a cell. You will also want to take a look a the cell controller software, but it seems as most of the major ones will all do the same thing, just calling it a bit differently. Don also mentioned tool capacity above, verticals are certainly limited, and we have found even 120 tools in our horizontal to be limiting. As you attempt to add part families to the cell, you find you quickly run out of tool pockets, and since you cannot move those projects into the cell, you limit the effectiveness of operating the cell.

If you were to purchase X number of machines to produce your family of parts, consider more tools than you will think you will ever want, and tool the machines exactly the same so the cell controller will place the job into the first available machine. This will keep you from having to schedule the machines based on tools available and cycle times - the cell controller will do it all for you.

Another issue to consider is how the cell is controlled. Mazak uses machine #1's (usually) CNC control as its "brain" for the servo drives in the cell, so if machine #1 is down for maintenance (or worst case a crazy bad crash), the entire cell is down. They do offer an optional, stand-alone cell controller to combat that issue. Also, if for some reason the robot loader is down, the cell is down and you will be loading parts through the machine door, but you won't be shuffling pallets.

You most likely are producing in "batches", overproducing what is needed at any point in time. With the cell set up correctly, you will eliminate set up, you can produce exactly what is required on a daily basis, and reduce raw material and WIP more easily than running the verticals. All this with less operators, and a more robust process by eliminating the set up/first article labor variable.

Tony mentioned the amount of real estate available - on a 500mm machine you can pretty easily get 4 sides of a tombstone with 15" x 25" of usable space if your parts allow it. If you need to access the sides of the parts, you may only get one part per face, or maybe only one part per tombstone (you may want to use a window fixture to get some tight tolerance parts in spec - especially if you have some tight TP features on opposite sides of the parts.) We run a family of parts that we are moving to our cell - most of them are "flat", 2 op parts, so they lend themselves to our crazy big tombstones - 20" x 20" square. We can get 12-20 parts per face depending on their size, but we have OP10 and OP20 on one face, so every pallet cycle will yield finished parts. Since all of this family of parts are used on a one-to-one basis, we will schedule the cell controller to make XX number of parts each day/week/month to meet the demand, and as long as we keep loading, the cell controller will keep cycling the pallet into the machines to meet the production schedule.

Using your times studies, you can estimate the total time required for loading parts. Take this information to determine how many load stations (work setting stations) you will need - you may find you want an extra load station to eliminate a shift. I know of a shop running two load stations for a four machine cell, where two operators can keep the machines running 24/7. This is certainly based on your parts and cycle times, but the cell controller can help determine when parts will run based on attended vs. unattended assignments.

Plan on 3-5 days of training just for getting the most out of the cell controller. If you can prove out all of your parts and fixtures before hand, then you can have the apps guy train you on the finest details of the cell controller. You will want to know cycle times of each tool on each part, production schedules for every part number, tool life for each tool, and any redundant tooling, etc. When you have all of this data in the cell controller, you will be able to use the cell to its fullest extent. For example, if your 1/2" end mill is out of tool life or it breaks (because you put tool breakage checks in your program), the cell controller can pull the pallet, place it back on the stocker and flag it for inspection, then puts in the next job that does not use that 1/2" end mill (or uses the redundant tool), and keeps making parts wile you are snoozing on Sunday morning.

There is a lot to consider and you will certainly need a project lead - you will probably also want to reprogram all of your parts to get the most out of machine and to make sure you are making robust programs. The implementation of the cell is a special project, visit other shops and ask a lot of questions of them about their methodology and what they would do different.

Steve
 
An HMC combines pallet changing with 3-sided machining per op. If your parts have features on more than 2 sides, a single HMC will run circles around three or four human-tended, 3-axis VMCs. Also, the chip evacuation ability of an HMC cannot be understated. With all pumps running, the coolant flow in an HMC is something like three garden hoses and a pressure washer spraying simultaneously. This is crucial to production. Expect your chip bins to overflow sooner than later. That's a good thing - any one can sweep up the floor and it doesn't affect spindle up time.

An alternative is a small VMC like a Brother Speedio with rotary and a robot. HMCs are very hungry machines that are ultimately hand-fed by a human, and no matter how tight of a ship you run, there will be times when the machine sits idle due to lack of incoming blanks. I suppose you could say that about any machine, but there's a big difference between mounting a blank in a fixture (HMC) and a putting a blank in a tray (robotic cell).

As others have said, a time study is in order. Without knowing the geometry and size of your parts, I would guess that you could benefit from both. Maybe start with an HMC FMS cell and robotize an existing VMC.
 
An HMC combines pallet changing with 3-sided machining per op. If your parts have features on more than 2 sides, a single HMC will run circles around three or four human-tended, 3-axis VMCs. Also, the chip evacuation ability of an HMC cannot be understated. With all pumps running, the coolant flow in an HMC is something like three garden hoses and a pressure washer spraying simultaneously. This is crucial to production. Expect your chip bins to overflow sooner than later. That's a good thing - any one can sweep up the floor and it doesn't affect spindle up time.

An alternative is a small VMC like a Brother Speedio with rotary and a robot. HMCs are very hungry machines that are ultimately hand-fed by a human, and no matter how tight of a ship you run, there will be times when the machine sits idle due to lack of incoming blanks. I suppose you could say that about any machine, but there's a big difference between mounting a blank in a fixture (HMC) and a putting a blank in a tray (robotic cell).

As others have said, a time study is in order. Without knowing the geometry and size of your parts, I would guess that you could benefit from both. Maybe start with an HMC FMS cell and robotize an existing VMC.

Chip evacuation with plastic is not a simple matter no difference between HMC or VMC. You need lots of volume and chip conveyors can be as much a headache as help.

I would need to know, a few things before I could make any assumptions on what would be better, A HMC or pallet VMC. I agree with yo and others, this needs some real study before money is spent.
 








 
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