Five axis machine peoject

jeremyj · May 5, 2013

I'm trying to decide between three machines and I'm looking for any advice.
1. Agie Charmilles Mikron UCP 800 Duro. 20k spindle non TSC. Heidenhain 530 control.
2. Hwacheon M2 5ax. 20k spindle TSC. Fanuc 31i-A5 control.
3. Doosan VM 630 5X. 12K spindle TSC. Fanuc 31i-A5 control. Pallet changer. 80 tools.
I need to make simultaneous five axis smooth cuts with excellent surface finish for my customer. Good Tolerance on mold surfaces is also a factor. Please give any first hand experience with any of these machines, especially in regards to durability, service or controls.

dstryr · May 5, 2013

jeremyj said:
I'm trying to decide between three machines and I'm looking for any advice.
1. Agie Charmilles Mikron UCP 800 Duro. 20k spindle non TSC. Heidenhain 530 control.
2. Hwacheon M2 5ax. 20k spindle TSC. Fanuc 31i-A5 control.
3. Doosan VM 630 5X. 12K spindle TSC. Fanuc 31i-A5 control. Pallet changer. 80 tools.
I need to make simultaneous five axis smooth cuts with excellent surface finish for my customer. Good Tolerance on mold surfaces is also a factor. Please give any first hand experience with any of these machines, especially in regards to durability, service or controls.

What is your budget? I looked into the Doosan VM 630 with the pallet changer and it looks like a great machine but I wanted it with the Siemens control and that has to be a special order. Doosan is also relatively new to the 5 axis game. For what it is worth I have 2 Quaser Mf400's (4+1) that have been good machines. I've ran both of them 16 hours a day 5-6 days a week since January and have had a couple minor issues but for the price they are great machines to get you involved in 5 axis machining. They are offering the mf400's with full 5 axis and they have a UX series that is full 5 axis as well.

I can tell you though that my next 5 axis will be a Hermle but you can buy 3 mf400's for 1 Hermle.

TC VMC · May 6, 2013

Hello,

Theres a big difference in the 3 your already comparing.

2 have 20K spindles and no pallet changer and 1 has a 12K spindle + Pallet changer.

If you want to get into 5 axis and have some joy with it, heres what I would recommend:

1) Machine to have Heidenhain iTNC530 control
2) 16K rpm spindle MIN.
3) TSC
4) Paper band filtration
5) 50 tools +

Why are Hermle & DMG not in the running..... ??

TC

Limy Sami · May 6, 2013

TC VMC said:
Why are Hermle & DMG not in the running..... ??

TC

Because this thread is either spam, a fishing trip or outright trolling.

Mark McGrath · May 6, 2013

Limy Sami said:
Because this thread is either spam, a fishing trip or outright trolling.

Eh.....no.

Or,you quoted the wrong post.

FK · May 6, 2013

If you narrowed it down to the three, I give the vote to the Hwacheon. We have one and it is my favorite OVERALL five axis I've used. We do NOT do simultaneous but positioning is critical and we hit tenths repeatably. Very good thermal stability and has Heidenhain scales in all five axis.

My past Micron experience is not favorable due to constant mechanical issues. No experience with the Doosan five.

Of course there are better machines, the sky is the limit, but you asked about the three.

Heidenhain is the best control no matter what you are doing with the machine. Daily set ups or full on simultaneous.

dstryr · May 6, 2013

Whats the price on that Hwacheon? I know the Doosan price

jeremyj · May 8, 2013

All the prices are the same +\- 10 k. I'm leaning toward the Hwacheon because the structure looks more rigid to me overall. The guides run under the carriage all the time and the trunion is counterbalanced. My only concern is that the fanuc isn't on the same level as the Heidenhain. The Hwacheon also has rapids almost double. I've pretty much eliminated the Doosan at this point.

FK · May 8, 2013

You are in a tough position; we were there a year ago. One hand is the best control on "O.K. iron". The other hand is "O.K." control on great "iron". Like everything, it depends on what you do. We chose the "great iron" route. Keep in mind, Fanuc is still a good control, just not the best like Heidenhain. We have both.

When comparing two high end controls, he machine itself will show more flaws to most people than the control. We chose Hwacheon for the same reasons you mentioned. Plus, Hwacheon here in the U.S. is VERY supportive of their product. We love them. Hopefully your dealer is as supportive.

MK Proto · May 8, 2013

I cant say much about the Doosan or Hwacheon, but can say all the Mikrons I have run I have never had accuracy or finish problems with (1350u, hsm600u, and vario). all simultaneous 5axis high tolerance parts. Simultaneous 5axis 3d machining on the Mikron we held less than .0003" tolerance on production parts over and over and over, as well as circle interpolating holes to less than +/-.0001 in production.

I don't know where the pricing for the Doosan or Hwacheon in, but know the Duro is about $400k, which is probably why DMG and Hermle are out as they are probably much higher priced.

I would go for the Mikron first, then the doosan, then the Hwacheon (which is not really in the same league as the other two. )

The Mirkon would be my choice without a doubt.

TC VMC · May 8, 2013

If I had to pick from that list of 3, I would only be putting the Mikron on my floor.

Its a proper 5 axis machine and they've been at it for a very long time.

They are Swiss, so its high quality, Its got a Heidenhain iTNC 530 control and i'm almost certain it would have a Step-Tec spindle also.

All round, I believe your in good hands there. You'd be getting good performance and reliability.

The Doosan is a nice machine too, no doubt. With the Heidenhain control on there I wouldn't be afraid of it.

Iron is important but on a 5 axis, the control either makes it or breaks it. But if its going to do 1 single job, day in day out until it dies - the Fanuc will be ok. Initially it would take a lot lot longer to get that first proven part off the machine.....

So my vote is the Mikron. Its a no brainer.

dstryr · May 8, 2013

Who would the Mikron dealer be?

I'm looking at a hermle for the end the year but want to consider a couple other options...

Dave Cross · May 8, 2013

Why are none of the Matsuura MAM machines on that list?

jeremyj · May 8, 2013

Milton dealer is Holco. I don't know why matsuura isn't. I'll look into it. I looked at haas which I have 2 five axis now, hurco, toyoda, dmg, makino, fryer, Doosan, Hwacheon, Mikron. There are so many options and I'm keeping it under 4.

jeremyj · May 8, 2013

Sorry, Mikron dealer is Holco. Autospell!

Hansdie · May 8, 2013

dstryr said:
Who would the Mikron dealer be?

I'm looking at a hermle for the end the year but want to consider a couple other options...

The Mikron dealer in your area would probably be diemoldmachinery.com

Have you looked at any Hermle machines in the bay area yet?

dstryr · May 8, 2013

Hansdie said:
The Mikron dealer in your area would probably be diemoldmachinery.com

Have you looked at any Hermle machines in the bay area yet?

Not closely...the shop down the street from us has one and loves it...I got a quote on a C20 with 30 tools, spindle probe and blum breakage detection and it was around $420...

troyk · May 9, 2013

Slightly off topic. I always wondered how you guys justify the cost of a 400k plus machine. It seems you need to have a pretty specific type of work that can be run semi or completely unattended to get use out of all 24 hrs in a day. Just figuring up payments over four years at 50 hrs a week is in the neighborhood of $40/hr for just the machine. No tooling, operator, programmer etc. Are you getting $100/hr for ALL the work that goes on these machines? I'm assuming you'd have to get at least that.
I own a small shop and have two verticals. Been in business for almost two years. Majority of the work I do is multiple setups that could benefit from 5 axis positioning though everything is low quantities (1-20). I've looked at taking the dive into to five axis world but at this point it's a pretty big leap of faith. I've been pretty consistently busy for those two years but it seems unless you have a bunch of cash in the bank getting slow for a month or so could put you right out of business. At what point did you guys "go for it"?

FK · May 9, 2013

The point of when we decided to "go for it " was when we said the same thing you did; "Majority of the work I do is multiple setups that could benefit from 5 axis positioning though everything is low quantities (1-20)." You figured $40 per hour just for the machine, that's about right for just running parts but so much of our time is set up. Doing multiple set ups take so much less time than separate ones in a VMC that it makes up for it so much quicker. Plus, none of us have a plethora of talented guys in our shops so if your Shining Star is more productive, he makes more money doing more work quicker. Then, once you have a five axis, it opens the door for more work to accept. It starts snowballing quickly. Yes, $400 to $800k is a bit to leap into but it comes back just as fast. It really does. Now, depending on your work, you may be able to get by with a "entry level" 5 axis that will do a grate job. The Quasar mentioned above looks nice, possibly the new Haas, or Leadwell. These are all in the $150 area that will do multiple set ups without the huge leap of faith. Once you see how they help you, you step up to a Yasda, Alzmetal, or Hwacheon (had to do it)

jeremyj · May 9, 2013

As for me I have a Haas VF-6 Trunion and an EC-1600 with a build-it-yourself fifth axis setup. I do almost predominantly aerospace work and NEED 5 axis simultaneous cutting. The Haas machines can do it, but you will throw some parts away because of not having tool center-point rotation. It takes a much more skilled programmer to get the first runs down. We also have a composite manufacturing department and need to make 1 off molds to +/-.001" on 3d surfaces. We do it now with a CMM and handwork. After having five axis Haas machines for about 10 years I will say this: If you are doing 3+2 and don't need heavy cutting capabilities save the money and get one. You'll hold .005 all day. If you need simultaneous cutting or heavy stock removal you have to start looking, because the weaknesses start to show. If you think you might want to go five axis and want to save money there are used machines out there if you're not picky. I just missed a 2004 Kitamura my-trunion 5 in the 120s about a month ago. Wasn't ready for the logistics of the auction. Need to be prepared, these things take planning to move and finance. Even if that thing would have taken 90K in repairs I would have been way ahead. If you're looking for set-up reduction and index capability in 90 degree increments, take a look at some palletizing equipment from Erowa, Jergens, etc. That will allow you to move parts to different set-ups, and different machines on your existing equipment. The ones I'm looking at only use shop air to release and are manual systems.

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