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Mazak VCN-510C-II vs Okuma Genos M560-V

Mykal1970

Plastic
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
I've eyeballed a 2013 Mazak VCN510C-II listed on eBay; incredibly clean, fresh looking unit with about 1500 hours on it as well as a 2016 Okuma Genos M560-V that looks every bit as clean and well kept, hours unknown. Both machines are currently listed at $86K and $89k respectively. Does anyone have a "ballpark" figure on what each of these joints could be purchased for NEW; both minimally optioned, for arguments sake? Would there be a significant difference in initial investment between them?
Yes, I realize the Mazak does not have the new SMOOTH-G control on it (OMG, the disgusting things I'd be willing to do in order to posses ANY Mazak VMC with that conrol on it) but, it's at least a Matrix Nexus. The Okuma OSP-P300M, what little I've been able to learn of it, is frankly...disappointing. Research into the iron of the two end up a complete draw; to my surprise. The Okuma essentially being "current" version of my old Mazak FJV-250; which was a rigid, and deadly accurate, platform back in the 1990's. The VCN as a C-frame is kinda "yawn" style (from a Mazak man's point of view) but entirely acceptable.
Please let me know if anyone out there has the true skinny on what these two machines actually sell for in the new market. It is my suspicion that I can get the Okuma for MUCH less than I could buy the older Mazak for; based on trends in the "used CNC market" for the past decade. Am I actually bitching about the crazy resell value of a Mazak?
Damn, I guess I am, having re-read this post.

Okuma Genos M560-V price new????
Mazak VCN510-IIC price new????

Hudley Stungwell.
 
What on earth is disappointing about Okuma's P300 controls? Great, rigid iron too. I've heard nothing but praises for these machines.

The Mazak on the other hand - besides the orange paint (if that's your sort of thing) - remind me what's "special" about it again...?
 
Getting either without 1000 psi thru Spindle would be a disappointment. I have 2 new okuma in the last 18 months, nothing but praise for both mill and lathe. If I was spending someone else’s money I would have a brand new 560 as well. Price depends on options, but a properly outfitted 560 with hp thru Spindle, enough bells and whistles to make 95% of stuff in its envelope plus rigging, shipping, concrete, electrical prep, toolholders, and retention knobs figure +15k-20k over raw price, and you will likely be 150-160 running on your floor.
 
The 510C-II has been replaced by the 530C. I just got a quote this week for a 530C. 213 psi through, auto tool length measure and a REALLY nice chip conveyor, at least it should be really nice for an $11,900 option. grand total of 123K
 
Disappointment regarding the OSP-P300M control; please allow me to rephrase that. What I meant by that statement would more accurately be "when compared to the Mazatrol SMOOTH-G" it would be an incredible disappointment; but honestly that isn't even a fair fight and shouldn't have even brought that up. As the "SMOOTH" series controls, inarguable as THE worlds most sophisticated of dedicated CNC control platforms, comparing them to current technology behind the balance of the CNC machine tool market would be just antagonistic, just begging for a heated debate; with those yet unfamiliar with this giant "leap" in technology the SMOOTH architecture represents in the CNC machining arena. I appologize; I'm sure the Okuma control is a damned fine control and I should not have attempted to draw a parallel between the two.

Regarding the construction of the actual machine tool; if you'll read my statements again you'll notice that my opinion of the Okuma design (cough, min 1990's Mazak FJV knock off, cough, cough) was positive. It is without question that Okuma has made some SIGNIFICANT improvements on the design concept and I find it to be the superior of the two in the kinematics aspect of comparison. The Genos has every indication of a very sound machine tool; markedly more advanced than the old C-frame designs (although they're still in production for a reason). Please keep in mind that I am a TOTAL Mazak "fanboy" and PROUD of it. Having that been said; yes, the Okuma is the mechanical superior of the two....in MY opinion.

Dollar for dollar.....what I was after from the initiation of this thread. Thank you guys for telling it how it is; knowing a current "ballpark" figure on pricing out a new machine tool can be tough. I understand dealers needing to keep this information "out of print" to an extent, but getting a ballpark figure shouldn't be like pulling teeth (as it often tends to be). With the pricing information provided, how incredibly "like new" both machines appear to be, the minor options lists for each factored in; I'm now prepared to make an offer on both machines. It would be safe to say that the Okuma would require a SIGNIFICANT price reduction in order to justify the control handicap. Man I hate being poor; I'd about kill for a SMOOTH-G controlled VMC.........Hell, I'd even welcome a small VCU!
Thanks to all who viewed and participated!

Kind regards,
Mykal Ward (AKA "Hudley Stungwell)
 
That Okuma mill is probably the best $110k you can spend on a 20x40 3axis cnc mill.
The control is the best I've ever ran.
(I have never ran a Mazak ;))
 
Disappointment regarding the OSP-P300M control; please allow me to rephrase that. What I meant by that statement would more accurately be "when compared to the Mazatrol SMOOTH-G" it would be an incredible disappointment

let us know how you like your mazak, sounds like you have already decided.

Honestly after my Millac761 Install I am amazed just how fast that beast is compared to the old machine ( which I won't confuse the issue with). The OSP has some things I would like to see added, has some things I really like I did not have before, but overall is sound, capable, and modern enough for my needs. I don't know whats so awesome about the new mazak controls... but I think we'd all like know why you are so stuck on it.
 
The price on the Okuma seems a little high to me unless it has some options. I don't remember the exact number, but the quote I received earlier this year on a new 560V was under $100k. I would expect to pay less than $89k for a used one.
 
The price on the Okuma seems a little high to me unless it has some options. I don't remember the exact number, but the quote I received earlier this year on a new 560V was under $100k. I would expect to pay less than $89k for a used one.

They're basically loaded from the factory, so not many options to choose from.
 
shouldn't your familiarity with the control make the decision for you?

:nutter: I’d surely hope so; did you happen to read my previous response?

Wow, the Okuma kids sure seem to be a little thin skinned. Having read my initial post as well as my reply to response; I fail to see anything defamatory or inaccurate. Hell, I felt like I was fairly clear in my opinion the Okuma being the mechanical superior to the Mazak in this comparison. Which leads us back to the issue of control.
I my shop, just like the VAST majority of other job shops, it rarely ever comes down to mechanical advantage outstripping the power of the control or the proficiency of the programming; there will be no rational argument to the contrary as viewed throughout the lifetime of the machine tool. As a job shop, a given part quantity being varied from 10 to 5,000 units, it is easy to see how one can be made or broken on the efficiency of setup and programming. This being absolutely true, in my case, there will never be a case where a “non Mazatrol” machine (of comparable vintage) EVER be beat to the finish line; as all Mazatrol controls I’ve ever used just as easily accept EIA/ISO code, just slap some stupid-ass G-code in there from (insert favorite CAM flavor here) to rub that funky-ass NURBed surface on that mold core, or that blend fillet along the rear “furniture” mount on that LOWER RECEIVER your making.
When I stated that I knew very little regarding the Okuma control; that wasn’t to be translated as my knowing very little about CNC controls in general. An old Bridgeport BOSS-4i did I cut my programming teeth upon so, don’t go there.

The whole point of my inquiry was simply to have the correct “dollar values” to weigh against the “costs of a combersome control architecture.” Now, here I’ve made myself look as “thin skinned” as the Okuma kids that chimed in.

Hudley Stungwell
 
I honestly skimmed your post, but I don’t consider myself thin skinned, nor an okuma fanboy. I have okuma, Fanuc, Mazak. And Cincinnati in cnc. I have run acramatic 2100 controls for close to 21 years. I figure the p300 is as good as it gets on a pc based contouring control. Some of the parts I run on the mill are days not hours. No program size issues, no problems in block processing speed, a few different things to learn, but every maker has that. All I meant was you can do far worse than an okuma, and not buying it due to a p300 if it’s better iron- that’s dumb
 
For those not familiar, the new Mazak Smooth-G & Smooth-X controls are built on Mitsubishi's new M800/M80 series controls. These are the full touch panel controls, and they do have some nice features.

Technology Product Feature Computerized Numerical Controllers(CNCs) | MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC FA

The most impressive feature (to me) that I saw was the continuity between the G-code processor/editor, and the graphics simulation. In other words, you could "dry-run" a program in the back-ground/simulation, and these controls would do a 3D trace of the toolpaths. Now, imagine a surfacing program of a 3D mold core - lots of toolpath... You could touch a line of code in the G-code editor, and then on the 3D simulation, the "point" that corresponded with that code would light up. It worked the opposite way too - touch a "point" on the 3D simulation, and the corresponding line of code would highlight in the editor.

I have a customer that took deliver of a 510/530C? machine a few months ago. I watched him demo a few features, and there's some nice handy features built in. A calculator built into the UI was handy. Some other nice UI tweaks too. Nothing truly "revolutionary" but neat nonetheless...


--------------------------------------------


All that being said, I don't make any attempt to hide that I'm not a big Mazak fan. I've fought thru some heartburn with their newer machines & service before, so certainly that's stuck in my memory. However, if I put all that aside, I honestly don't think the buyer gets as much for their money, as they would from the other big-name machine builders.

Since we're in a "Okuma vs. Mazak" thread, I'll just point out a few observations. Okuma has had the touch-screen controls for almost 15 years now? Not revolutionary in itself, but it makes navigating the control a little nicer & smoother - something the user quickly appreciates after constant use. Okuma's controls offer WAAAAYYYYYY more flexibility for macro programming - the best of any control on the market perhaps. They have beautifully integrated manuals on the control, and are most helpful when an alarm pops up, and at the press of a button, you're taken to the corresponding section in the alarm, with possible fixes...

With Mazak you get Mazatrol, which most users rave about. However, from my experience, I don't think I've ever seen anything on a Mazak that's physically as well-made as on any Okuma I've ever seen. And I'm basing that on Horizontal Lathes, Vertical & Horizontal Mills, and some other "casual observations" as well...


--------------------------------------


It might sound like I'm hating, but not really. I guess as a buyer/user, you have to focus on what's important to you. If you want the Mazak control, and a "good enough" machine is OK for you, then you should be fine. I've just always been impressed by Okuma machines on just about every front. I guess that makes me a "fanboy" but at least my fanboy status is built on actual experience...

Anyway, that's my two-thou'...
 
@Studley Hungwell... (are you sure you don't work for Okuma Aerospace center in NC lol).



FJV-25� II

^^^ This (link) ^^^ IS the current incarnation of the fjV that is basically a 20X40 double column machine with the "Smooth" control. Closer equivalent to M-560v.

I've had prices on the Mazak 530 C II and Genos M-560 V in the past but not on the FJV.

If I was control agnostic (i.e. didn't care about OSP vs Mazak smooth G or smooth -X ) then probably for me the ergonomics would be more of an issue.

On the Mazak 510 style to 530 C frame, you have to lean into the machine quite a bit vs, a bridge style where the table can come closer to you. [Lower back torn disk issue so that affects me greatly as to what I can and can't do].

I don't have current pricing on the FJV (new) but would imagine its closer to $200K than below $140 K new ... ( I would guess base price is about $165K to $180K + for FJV as its more of mold type machine maybe like a Makino F5 (kind of thing/almost).

YES I agree with seemingly high prices for second hand MAZAKs (they seem to hold a lot of "Value" ) as folks locked into the MAZAK/mazatrol way of doing things tend to stay on that track; same for OSP Okuma guys as typically the folks that get the most out of that control are very experienced machinists that manage to dig deep on that and get to the nitty gritty of some quite low level specialized tasks, i.e. good support for low level very expert access; that's why a lot of very experienced machinists always refer to that control as being "Powerful". I have observed some newbies that have been sold on some Okuma Genos machines seem to be taking a long time to really "Get -with it"... I think MAZAK control + Mazatrol is less of a learning curve IMO for time taken to get to real parts.

So buying new with financing could mean lower risk if everything ultimately goes "Tits up"/"to the wall" to re-sell the machine at a decent price.

Long story short Mazak 530C II is about the same price as Okuma Genos M-560v new (these days) AND I have to say they hold onto their value about the same second hand... So you are probably not going to get any "Steals" in the second hand market for M-560V as folks know they are really well built machines that go on forever.
That would be a good selling point for Okuma Genos M-560v in general. You could buy a Hardinge Bridgeport V-1000 new for the money you are talking here ...

Horsely Hung-Like

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

-Some of the Mazak VCs would/could be in your budget new perhaps? If you are digging the Smooth G control. VERTICAL CENTER UNIVERSAL 5C

[Just as aside they have really improved VCU-500 5ax machine so that lends credence to the VC 500C perhaps (new) :-) ].

-Also lower (total) cost of ownership/spare parts Okuma (expensive) vs. MAZAK (not so expensive) ? [Mazaks are designed with that principal in mind].

-The problem with second hand Okuma Genos is that base price used to be of the order of about $140k*... (with nothing thrown in) Prices have gone up and down
over the past ten years.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

* Typically folks that are very "On-message" about Okuma and have good local dealers etc. can score good deals on floor models or trade show machines. [Significant reductions on new machines, but not so much with older machines/second hand market. ].
 
:nutter: I’d surely hope so; did you happen to read my previous response?

Wow, the Okuma kids sure seem to be a little thin skinned. Having read my initial post as well as my reply to response; I fail to see anything defamatory or inaccurate. Hell, I felt like I was fairly clear in my opinion the Okuma being the mechanical superior to the Mazak in this comparison. Which leads us back to the issue of control.
I my shop, just like the VAST majority of other job shops, it rarely ever comes down to mechanical advantage outstripping the power of the control or the proficiency of the programming; there will be no rational argument to the contrary as viewed throughout the lifetime of the machine tool. As a job shop, a given part quantity being varied from 10 to 5,000 units, it is easy to see how one can be made or broken on the efficiency of setup and programming. This being absolutely true, in my case, there will never be a case where a “non Mazatrol” machine (of comparable vintage) EVER be beat to the finish line; as all Mazatrol controls I’ve ever used just as easily accept EIA/ISO code, just slap some stupid-ass G-code in there from (insert favorite CAM flavor here) to rub that funky-ass NURBed surface on that mold core, or that blend fillet along the rear “furniture” mount on that LOWER RECEIVER your making.
When I stated that I knew very little regarding the Okuma control; that wasn’t to be translated as my knowing very little about CNC controls in general. An old Bridgeport BOSS-4i did I cut my programming teeth upon so, don’t go there.

The whole point of my inquiry was simply to have the correct “dollar values” to weigh against the “costs of a combersome control architecture.” Now, here I’ve made myself look as “thin skinned” as the Okuma kids that chimed in.

Hudley Stungwell


On the GENOS lines with Okuma they do list the current base prices on their web sites:

CNC Machine | Vertical Machining Center | GENOS M56 | VMC | Affordable Excellence

Current web site advertised base price is $125,580.00

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This one ? OKUMA, GENOS M56-V, OSP-P3M CNTRL, CNC VERTICAL MACHINING CENTER, NEW: 215 | eBay

And This one also ? 213 Mazak Vertical Mill - VCN 51C II CNC Machining Center - Nexus - Renishaw | eBay

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Wondering if the Okuma Genos might be "Click bait"?
 
I have two 560's and have been very happy with them. A lot of the work that we get comes from the finishes that we can get our of them. Very reliable, love the controls, and especially with what I have seen from Mazak service around here Okuma is a no brainer.
 
I watched a 2012 510c-II Spec'd the same as the one in New York except it didn't have the tool probe sell for 85k at an auction plus 12% buyers premium today
 
Okuma Price

I've eyeballed a 2013 Mazak VCN510C-II listed on eBay; incredibly clean, fresh looking unit with about 1500 hours on it as well as a 2016 Okuma Genos M560-V that looks every bit as clean and well kept, hours unknown. Both machines are currently listed at $86K and $89k respectively. Does anyone have a "ballpark" figure on what each of these joints could be purchased for NEW; both minimally optioned, for arguments sake? Would there be a significant difference in initial investment between them?
Yes, I realize the Mazak does not have the new SMOOTH-G control on it (OMG, the disgusting things I'd be willing to do in order to posses ANY Mazak VMC with that conrol on it) but, it's at least a Matrix Nexus. The Okuma OSP-P300M, what little I've been able to learn of it, is frankly...disappointing. Research into the iron of the two end up a complete draw; to my surprise. The Okuma essentially being "current" version of my old Mazak FJV-250; which was a rigid, and deadly accurate, platform back in the 1990's. The VCN as a C-frame is kinda "yawn" style (from a Mazak man's point of view) but entirely acceptable.
Please let me know if anyone out there has the true skinny on what these two machines actually sell for in the new market. It is my suspicion that I can get the Okuma for MUCH less than I could buy the older Mazak for; based on trends in the "used CNC market" for the past decade. Am I actually bitching about the crazy resell value of a Mazak?
Damn, I guess I am, having re-read this post.

Okuma Genos M560-V price new????
Mazak VCN510-IIC price new????

Hudley Stungwell.


I was quoted 99k for a new Okuma M560 two days ago
 
99k
3k shipping
3-5k concrete foundation 18" thick with anchor bolts
pull studs- 20 with machine- 1k for another 20
toolholders- 250 each x 40- 10k
hp coolant unit- 10k
electrical install- 2500 if you hire it....

so it depends what all you have to buy.... but a new running machine bolted to 18 inches of concrete , hp coolant, and a full magazine of new holders- 130-150 budgetary is pretty accurate on your floor. but 30-50 depends on you.... and would be the same for either machine.
 








 
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