Milling chucks or side locks?

Captdave · Jan 12, 2015

Tooling up a new machine and trying to decide if it's time to invest in a couple of milling chucks.

90% of what we do is 6061 with 1/2" EM's, but now we'll have 15,000 RPM and 30 HP.

Is there enough difference in TIR and holding power to justify the 2X price for both tool holders and collets?

TIA

PixMan · Jan 12, 2015

Absolutely!

The difference in runout between hydraulic milling chucks and Weldon shank holders is on the order of 10x. At the speeds and feeds you can now run that improvement will have a noticeable increase in tool life and surface finishes.

2outof3 · Jan 12, 2015

Follow the lead of the cutting tool manufacturer. If the cutter has a side notch than use a side lock holder. If the cutter is solid shanked, than the right holder is a solid milling chuck of some sort.

Hertz · Jan 12, 2015

Captdave said:
Tooling up a new machine and trying to decide if it's time to invest in a couple of milling chucks.

90% of what we do is 6061 with 1/2" EM's, but now we'll have 15,000 RPM and 30 HP.

Is there enough difference in TIR and holding power to justify the 2X price for both tool holders and collets?

TIA

Milling chucks have better TIR but have large gauges. This causes a lot of unnecessary chatter. I think milling chucks are overrated personally. I worked with them a lot and also with ER and TG collets, and of course side lock holders. For roughing I'd stick with a sidelock holder. Again this depends how hard you plan to push the cutter. I have a few videos where I'm pushing the cutter pretty hard in a milling chuck and they do hold well, however I have had a couple near misses with them pulling out. I think though if you plan to stay 1/2" and under, you should be ok with the milling chucks. I just look at the cost/performance ratio and my opinion is not worth it.

Jharjo · Jan 12, 2015

We use these in the okuma genos m560 here.

Techniks DualDRIVE ER Collet Chucks for Dual Contact and Standard Spindles for most things

anything where we are hogging out some serious material and not using indexible tooling, we use

Techniks CAT, HSK Heavy Duty Milling Chucks

358Mustang · Jan 12, 2015

Hertz said:
Milling chucks have better TIR but have large gauges. This causes a lot of unnecessary chatter. I think milling chucks are overrated personally. I worked with them a lot and also with ER and TG collets, and of course side lock holders. For roughing I'd stick with a sidelock holder. Again this depends how hard you plan to push the cutter. I have a few videos where I'm pushing the cutter pretty hard in a milling chuck and they do hold well, however I have had a couple near misses with them pulling out. I think though if you plan to stay 1/2" and under, you should be ok with the milling chucks. I just look at the cost/performance ratio and my opinion is not worth it.

I somewhat agree with half of this, but the fact of them being over rated I don't agree with at all.. But then again it totally depends on your machine, tools, and how hard you are pushing them. Schunk makes a pretty short gage length holder. I have one sitting here and it is very short, not going to get a whole lot shorter unless you get like a zero gauge holder or something. We use a lot of long 3/4" and 1" endmills though, and they suck in side lock holders... But since you are talking 1/2" you may be just fine without the mill chucks.

dstryr · Jan 12, 2015

That Okuma spindle is a beast. I'd get some Schunk Hydraulics. Milling chucks with the longer gage length affect machines where the rigidity isn't there. I can take a holder out of my 5 axis that chatters and stick it in the horizontal and dead quiet.

I mainly use side lock holders here for roughing. I always seem to need the side clearance that the milling, er , or others don't give you with the same projection.

Edster · Jan 12, 2015

Schunk Tendo hydraulic chucks are very nice. They are short gage length and have a slim nose. TIR is lowest out of anything I have at the shop. Better than Rego-fix UP ER, and slightly better than Powergrip. They don't need any special fixtures / machines to clamp and unclamp. You don't even need a tool vise, just hold the taper in your hand and tighten the allen screw until it bottoms. Your just moving a plunger so there is hardly any torque on the screw. The 3/4" size is a popular size and it is the most economical chuck. Reduce it to whatever size you need with collets. Collets come in sealed for TSC through the tool or slotted for tools with no coolant holes. IMO you can't go wrong with these.

NaRbO · Jan 13, 2015

I just recently ran some 3/4 5 flute end mills in 46 RC H13. In the 40 taper with a 1.25 Nikken Milling chuck, tool pulled out taking .03 stepover .006 chipload. In the 50 taper it also pulled out of an NT Milling chuck and a Schunk 32mm Hydraulic chuck. So for me anything 1/2 or bigger goes in a sidelock. Tool life is just as good from what I've seen.

Gobo · Jan 13, 2015

Big Kaiser arguably makes some of the best milling holders in the world. Check them out.

jid2 · Jan 13, 2015

Good holders make a difference for sure. Side lock just don't balance out as well for high spindle speed, and don't have acceptable runout.

Hydraulics have OK holding strength, but they do not maintain good runout under load, it's science. If the side load from cutting is higher than the hydraulic force the tool will deflect in the holder and increase runout. Watch lots of youtube videos with hydraulic chucks and you can see and hear the squeaking.

Low taper angle collet chucks give the high gripping force, low runout, and do not change under load. Holders like Nikken VC, Albrecht Uberchucks, and Fahrion GOZ. A friend of mine switched from generic ER to Fahrion and is running double the feedrate now.

Read this excellent thread by Rich S which includes testing. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e-compact-fahrion-goz-cento-p-holders-276377/

toolsteel · Jan 13, 2015

Not only will a Schunk style holder improve runout, thereby increasing tool life.....etc. It will also be balanced which you will want when running that spindle up to 15K.

Mtndew · Jan 13, 2015

For 99% of my toolholder needs I buy Pioneer brand. Balanced to 20k I believe, and their solid holders have something called Jet Blast where the thru spindle coolant is directed along the shank and flutes of the cutter..making bores and deep slots a dream for chip evac.
PIONEER Premium Tool & Work Holding

CBlair · Jan 13, 2015

I really prefer the Schunk holders as well, although I dont approach the power and speed you will be seeing. I have a set of the "dang what are they called?" collet chuck. Ha Ha I will have to look them up later but they are not hydraulic but do have some kind of resilient core and they hold very well and being smooth are quiet when running. They really make the tools last a long time compared to the er chucks. I only use the Schunk holders for my premium 1/2 in tools and for the insert cutters. For most of the other sizes I just use the er holders as the tools get changed out more frequently.

Charles

Ok I had to look it up but it is the Sino R series holder.

SCHUNK GmbH & Co. KG Spann- und Greiftechnik

cnctoolcat · Jan 13, 2015

I think the "ultimate, end-all" solution is shrink fit holders, for high rpm, high mrr machining.

But not only are the holders a bit salty, you have to buy the heating unit as well.

Atomkinder · Jan 13, 2015

I default to solid holders for roughing in all materials. We only have 10k and 12k spindles anyway, and if I run into a situation where I need every RPM I can get, it'll be the balanced TG100's we have, because I think getting this shop to buy tooling is damn near like pulling teeth

That said, had a couple Nikken milling chucks that we used for finishing punches at the last shop. Never bothered with them for roughing, and hardmilling was a gamble depending on radial depth whether the tool would pull or not.

rwbaldwin · Jan 13, 2015

We use the Techniks Cat50 SuperRIGID ER32 (3/4", 20mm shank) Holders. They're balanced to 25k and the 'stubbyness' gives increased rigidity/better T.I.R. As a result, the tool life/finish is much better.

csharp · Jan 13, 2015

Mtndew said:
For 99% of my toolholder needs I buy Pioneer brand. Balanced to 20k I believe, and their solid holders have something called Jet Blast where the thru spindle coolant is directed along the shank and flutes of the cutter..making bores and deep slots a dream for chip evac.
PIONEER Premium Tool & Work Holding

I use a lot of Pioneer also. I have 8 of the SX holders.

SX - Super Collet Chuck - PIONEER Premium Tool & Work Holding

I have the SX25 which has an 8 deg taper vs 16 or an er collet and they are only 1.75" projection, can hold a 1" shank, and same diameter as ER32.

I used a 1" arbor and a 5" saw with not problems.

dstryr · Jan 13, 2015

MX / VX - Mini Chucks - PIONEER Premium Tool & Work Holding

I really like the MX one. I have a 1/4 em with 2.0fl necked back 3.0 that I use on 1 job for cleaning up some walls. .0004 runnout at 3.0 from the collet. Leaves a beautiful finish for what it is at 4500 rpm and 20 ipm. Same tool would chatter like a motha fucka in an er collet on the same job.

Milling chucks or side locks?

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