How to tell your boss he's an IDIOT!?

CNCBurnout · Jan 5, 2018

Hello everyone! I'll try to sum up my situation the best I can without writing a novel.

I've recently got stuck in a position where I am the lead CNC programmer for a very large company. My new manager has no experience with machining or CNCs. He came up to me today with a 6" cutoff disk and told me wants to use one of our $2,000,000 Hermle as a cutoff/grinding machine! I was caught so far off guard, I could think of only a few reasons why it was a terrible idea. He told me he has the plant mangers permission to do this but I would like to build an argument against this whole idea before it even starts.

Here are some of my beginning concerns why this should not happen.

-Grinding\cuttoff disks create so much abrasive dust that the machine's ways and spindle lifespan will be cut drastically.

-Cutoff wheels degrade rapidly and the BLUM tool setter can only measure diameters up to 80mm he wants to use a 160mm wheel. Our operators are only button pushers, we have it set up so no one enters in tool offsets. They cannot be trusted to enter in the cutoff disks diameter manually.

-They don't make hsk toolholders for cutoof disks as far as I'm aware.

-Its a milling machine not a grinder!

This list seems so short to how I feel this a bad idea. Maybe people have done this and I'm just ignorant? Thoughts please?

Mtndew · Jan 5, 2018

That's possibly one of the dumbest decisions I've ever heard. How did this guy get to be a supervisor?
You don't use a cnc like that unless it's a beat up Haas or Fadal. Hell use a Bridgeport!

Miguels244 · Jan 5, 2018

Mtndew said:
That's possibly one of the dumbest decisions I've ever heard. How did this guy get to be a supervisor?
You don't use a cnc like that unless it's a beat up Haas or Fadal. Hell use a Bridgeport!

How did he get there?
It's called the Peter principle.

Like a turtle on a fence post.

CNCBurnout · Jan 5, 2018

Mtndew exactly! I've done that before on a clapped out Bridgeport with a little 3" wheel while cutting something very hard. So is it possible? yes. Is it a good idea? Hell no!

Bigbore050 · Jan 5, 2018

Need to explain a detailed reason or two why its a bad idea and be ready to have a solution to the problem he is trying to solve. If you don't have a better idea be ready to program a macro to comp the cutter diameter. lol

If you have a better idea and he still wants to do it his way you have no choice but to defecate in one of his desk drawers.

kustomizingkid · Jan 5, 2018

I once used an air powered cutoff wheel strapped to the toolpost on a WarBoard Hendey to cut a hardened 300M axleshaft... but the thought of using one in a Hermele...

Hodge · Jan 5, 2018

While I agree 100% with you, if you don't handle it with kid gloves, it will end up biting you in the ass. You'll be the bad guy and he will do it regardless. Try to figure a way to work with him for a more cost effective remedy. Sounds like he's tight with the plant manager since he went to him before discussing with you.
Good luck

PeteM · Jan 5, 2018

You might tell him that you looked into the grinding dust collection system and the way protectors required to protect your $2M investiment -- and for only $14,700 you can get it up and running. Only problem is, it will take a while to change over if you want to mill something and you couldn't find anyone who'd warrant that the bearings and ways still wouldn't be trashed.

ewlsey · Jan 5, 2018

I worked in a place once where they decided to machine sand cores on one of our machines. They literally put a few hundred compacted sand parts in the machine and cut them with a face mill.

I more or less quit before they could fire me...

gregormarwick · Jan 5, 2018

Don't waste your breath telling him about the damage grinding dust can do. Unless he's knowledgable about such things already (clearly he's not) your complaints will mean nothing to him and will fall on deaf ears.

Instead tell him about the downtime and hours of labour, replacement parts, and post work maintenance that will be required to bring the machine back to normal operation AFTER he's finished grinding on it. Hyperbole is fine within reason as long as you're careful not to speak to him like he's an idiot. No need to go into much detail unless he presses you for it.

Alternatively (consider your situation carefully before you go this route) you can cite safety concerns - tell some horror stories about grinding discs fracturing under load and fragments flying through the windows at dangerous velocities.

2outof3 · Jan 5, 2018

CNCBurnout said:
Hello everyone! I'll try to sum up my situation the best I can without writing a novel.

I've recently got stuck in a position where I am the lead CNC programmer for a very large company. My new manager has no experience with machining or CNCs. He came up to me today with a 6" cutoff disk and told me wants to use one of our $2,000,000 Hermle as a cutoff/grinding machine! I was caught so far off guard, I could think of only a few reasons why it was a terrible idea. He told me he has the plant mangers permission to do this but I would like to build an argument against this whole idea before it even starts.

Here are some of my beginning concerns why this should not happen.

-Grinding\cuttoff disks create so much abrasive dust that the machine's ways and spindle lifespan will be cut drastically.

-Cutoff wheels degrade rapidly and the BLUM tool setter can only measure diameters up to 80mm he wants to use a 160mm wheel. Our operators are only button pushers, we have it set up so no one enters in tool offsets. They cannot be trusted to enter in the cutoff disks diameter manually.

-They don't make hsk toolholders for cutoof disks as far as I'm aware.

-Its a milling machine not a grinder!

This list seems so short to how I feel this a bad idea. Maybe people have done this and I'm just ignorant? Thoughts please?

Ask Hermle service in an email on how they would do it. They ought to throw up enough caution warnings (as in it voids warranties) and such to give you cover.

Pathogen · Jan 5, 2018

Having worked with fools and idiots in ranking positions; my advice, use that CNC as the best grinding machine money can buy. Do it just the way you were told and keep comments to yourself. If asked how the process can be improved, find the most expensive tool, chuck, readout you can find and suggest it. There is no helping them as they have way better connections than you ever will. Otherwise, find another job where your intelligence will be welcomed and appreciated. Whichever way you decide to go, have money saved and a plan to break free on your say, not theirs. I feel for ya.

cameraman · Jan 5, 2018

CNCBurnout said:
Hello everyone! I'll try to sum up my situation the best I can without writing a novel.

I've recently got stuck in a position where I am the lead CNC programmer for a very large company. My new manager has no experience with machining or CNCs. He came up to me today with a 6" cutoff disk and told me wants to use one of our $2,000,000 Hermle as a cutoff/grinding machine! I was caught so far off guard, I could think of only a few reasons why it was a terrible idea. He told me he has the plant mangers permission to do this but I would like to build an argument against this whole idea before it even starts.

Here are some of my beginning concerns why this should not happen.

-Grinding\cuttoff disks create so much abrasive dust that the machine's ways and spindle lifespan will be cut drastically.

-Cutoff wheels degrade rapidly and the BLUM tool setter can only measure diameters up to 80mm he wants to use a 160mm wheel. Our operators are only button pushers, we have it set up so no one enters in tool offsets. They cannot be trusted to enter in the cutoff disks diameter manually.

-They don't make hsk toolholders for cutoof disks as far as I'm aware.

-Its a milling machine not a grinder!

This list seems so short to how I feel this a bad idea. Maybe people have done this and I'm just ignorant? Thoughts please?

Using a $2M 5 axis extremely precise and accurate machine as a compound (abrasive) chop saw does not require an explanation.

Just say "No". No explanation required; BUT dig up the application engineer's telephone numbers in Germany and get "Your Manager" to explain to them what it is he or she is wanting to do with that machine.

Even better try to get him or her to Skype the guys at Hermle Germany... Because I can guarantee they will just shake their heads very slowly and just say "No"/"Nein"... "Anything else we can help you with?".

There are for example some DMG mori machines 5 axis that are more tolerant of bona fide grinding ops, and same with Matsuura MAM type machines.

You have every right to defend that machine from unnecessary and idiotic and senseless destruction.

It's always a basic question... What is the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen is really expensive (replacement parts damaged by small particulate abrasive particles recirculating?).

Odd that better work is not found for such a machine? Is your Hermle really that under-utilized?

What is the material being cut? (weapons grade plutonium or depleted uranium, Osmium... ???).

FredC · Jan 5, 2018

What does he want to cut off and finish? Can it be done with regular milling tools? If so propose to do it with a cost effective alternative.

CNCBurnout · Jan 5, 2018

Bigbore050 said:
Need to explain a detailed reason or two why its a bad idea and be ready to have a solution to the problem he is trying to solve. If you don't have a better idea be ready to program a macro to comp the cutter diameter. lol

If you have a better idea and he still wants to do it his way you have no choice but to defecate in one of his desk drawers.

That is the style tool setter the machine has, I don't know if i can create a measuring cycle with the tool centerline offset enough to not crash the wheel into the laser posts. I'll have to go do some measuring.

But maybe I'll skip all that and just defecate in his desk drawer for making my life harder! lol

SND · Jan 5, 2018

I hear sometimes its easier to ask question and let them try to think and clue in than to say no and just have them try to one up you to get their way.

Why does it have to be done in that machine? is it the best way to process these?
Is it worth the risk of getting grinding grit everywhere in this expensive machine? Who's gonna clean it and change the coolant?
Could you(the manager) check with Hermle to see if they can suggest how to properly do this? (best they be the one telling him than you)
Could I please have a written note that says this idea was suggested and approved by upper management and any machine damage is not my responsibility?

gkoenig · Jan 5, 2018

I think you're coming at this from the wrong direction.

You're being given an opportunity to do something interesting, on someone else's dime, with a really flossy piece of equipment. AB Tools runs Haas mills as carbide grinders, and has done so for many years without any of the chicken-little predictions of mill doom. Haberle in Germany sets up Robodrills to do tool grinding as well, with no ill effects, and I know a large local knife maker has Robodrills doing blade grinding. Obviously, people are grinding in standard mills with no ill effects - study what they've done and replicate it.

Now, that doesn't mean you should just throw a grinder in there and go at it. You should study the issue, speak to others who've done this before, research the pitfalls and show your manager the actual costs, risks, and potential barriers to success. Going into this with a concrete view that it's a terrible idea and with the goal of tanking it is is a terrible attitude.

CNCBurnout · Jan 5, 2018

2outof3 said:
Ask Hermle service in an email on how they would do it. They ought to throw up enough caution warnings (as in it voids warranties) and such to give you cover.

I was told he did contact Hermle did but I didn't get a clear answer what was it Hermle said. I think they are stalling for time with him since we are now installing our 4th Hermle and the 5th is set to ship 2 months from now. I need to contact them myself and try to get an answer.

CNCBurnout · Jan 5, 2018

cameraman said:
Using a $2M 5 axis extremely precise and accurate machine as a compound (abrasive) chop saw does not require an explanation.

Just say "No". No explanation required; BUT dig up the application engineer's telephone numbers in Germany and get "Your Manager" to explain to them what it is he or she is wanting to do with that machine.

Even better try to get him or her to Skype the guys at Hermle Germany... Because I can guarantee they will just shake their heads very slowly and just say "No"/"Nein"... "Anything else we can help you with?".

There are for example some DMG mori machines 5 axis that are more tolerant of bona fide grinding ops, and same with Matsuura NAM type machines.

You have every right to defend that machine from unnecessary and idiotic and senseless destruction.

It's always a basic question... What is the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen is really expensive (replacement parts damaged by small particulate abrasive particles recirculating?).

Odd that better work is not found for such a machine? Is your Hermle really that under-utilized?

What is the material being cut? (weapons grade plutonium or depleted uranium, Osmium... ???).

We make investment castings and this particular machine is meant for heavy gate removal. The material is a high in nickel super alloy. Closet thing I can compare it to is inconel 718. We already have a process in place for this feature he wants to cut, that uses a ceramic shell mill for roughing and carbide end mill to finish. So they are unhappy with tooling costs and going out of there realm to try and reduce costs.

SND · Jan 5, 2018

Is it a part/product they intended to run that way from the get go(hard to imagine), but will it pay for it?

Edit, just saw the above post. This might be a case of try whatever and don't worry too much about the machine.
In the end, so long as it makes money and puts out good parts that's what matters most, and its what hopefully pays for the next one when this one is toast.

How to tell your boss he's an IDIOT!?

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