Training and Management

Gobo · Jun 12, 2014

After beating my head against the wall for over twenty years trying to get management to set up some type of structured training program, I am feeling somewhat frustrated. It seems that they think " All you are doing is pushing a button, how hard can it be?" I have seen jaws torn off chucks, destroyed spindles, thrown parts, and you name just about everything else, almost all directly related to no, or poor training. Is it just where I work, or what? What is your managements take on training?

michiganbuck · Jun 12, 2014

At one large shop where I worked we had a training something about every five years. Perhaps the largest was Statistical Process Control. My boss an Egyptian engineer even wrote a training program with the help of the Tool Research guys for Job-Setters that lasted for a few years. It was like a scaled down apprentice program for them.
The good Job-Setters mostly knew the material and the others learned measuring tools care and use, tool failure, fixturing, clean holders and fixtures, insert size, shape and rake attitude, cutting tool forces and results, communication and more.

EDM JOE · Jun 12, 2014

Our approach here is...

1. Machinist shows an interest in learning new skills that will benefit the machinist and the company.
2. Talk to the boss and determine sources of knowledge or curriculum.
3. Learn the new material and reteach it to other employees that may have a need or interest in the subject.

In a word, our training program is individualized, without exception. It works very well with the mixed workload that we handle here. Some guys like to learn new skills while others are happy where they are with their skill set. I like this better than throwing training time and money at employees that are disinterested, or are only trying to dodge normal work responsibilities.

Bobw · Jun 12, 2014

Welcome to modern american management....

If you are too stupid to do the job, you can get paid more to tell the people that have the skill what to do...
Nice work if you can get it...

I think they teach stupid crap like this in school. Never spend a nickel today, even if it prevents spending a million
dollars tomorrow.

Maybe you need to try using their buzzwords.

I'd try "we need to be PROACTIVE, not REACTIVE".

Then again they probably will agree with you at that point since you used buzzwords, but they have no clue
what they mean, they just like to hear them and say them... And then do the same stupid shit they always do.

hobbyman · Jun 12, 2014

Response by a Japanese businessman when asked why he spends so much on training staff: "Employees are the only thing that does not depreciate over time."

sealark37 · Jun 12, 2014

EVERY successful, technologically advanced concern has a comprehensive, flexible training department. The thorough training of employees and customer employees has proven over time to be not only economic, but very cost-effective. The ignorant manager sees training as an unnecessary employee benefit with no return on investment. Pretty easy to separate the sheep from the wolves. Regards, Clark

Heinz R. Putz · Jun 14, 2014

Love this topic.
I have been training shops in all parts of CNC for the last 30 years, totally self employed, training shop people, designers, inspectors, managers, anybody even marginally involved in CNC manufacturing.
Getting everyone involved to a higher level of CNC knowledge turned out to be very valuable, even the drawings can be laid out to make it easy to write programs.
My favorite example was to tell designers and draftsmen to put in all dimensions for every tangent point between angle and radius motions.
My favorite question: What is cheaper, to have a guy do it who only has a pencil, or the guy who has a very expensive machine waiting to produce parts?
How much can you increase efficiency? Minimum increase once I was done was rougly 10%, with up to 30% not unusual.
Do any of you know of anybody that teaches CNC totally self employed?
If you do, please let me know, I will give them any advice they may need.
Heinz at doccnc.com

DMF_TomB · Jun 14, 2014

where i work there are very big sophisticated machines some manuals but most cnc. usually the old time operators who is in his 60's "suddenly" decides to retire or go out permanently because of cancer or heart or whatever.
.
then management seems surprised that nobody else knows how to run the machines or knows all the setup tricks. they never bothered to have somebody work with the guy to take over when he is on vacation or sick. whats the saying you reap what you sow. dont plant any seeds and dont be surprised not much is growing
.
then of course the brain dead bosses seem surprised nobody can be hired that has the exact skills that can walk right in and take over with no training.
.
me when i see job postings for other machines i apply to broaden my experience. then if machine is down for maintenance i can work on other machines. by being more versatile i am less likely to get laid off when things are slow.

maz43 · Jun 14, 2014

Where I work we have near minimum wage temps running our machines.
They don't have any experience and most don't care to learn. High turnover rate.
High turnover prevents me from doing any real training. We have VMC's, Chuckers and Swissturns.
I get "operators" that cant read calipers or mics and are expected to Operate ,check parts and make offsets on two 7 axis swissturns. We run 304l stainless in them(very unforgiving shit in a swiss).
One guy could not figure out how to open a Kurt vise with a frickin wrench I handed him.
Last week Another guy stood there as a rough boring bar broke and let it keep running
I was across the shop and heard the problem. The finish bore came in next and the sound was very loud. It was blindingly obvious to the whole shop but him E stop should have been pressed quite a while ago. I had to run over and stop the machine.
I wanted to cut him loose but the owners still kept him there.
The owners know nothing about machining or CNC. They thing they are Jiffy bake ovens that run themselves. They quote jobs clueless or not to whether our machines can even do
the job let alone make money at it.
I am the only one there that knows anything about machining and CNC. The ones in the production meeting dont even know how to turn one on but they want to somehow improve my process....
When done they come out and ask me what the problem is.
I reply " skilled swissturn guys wont work for 9 bucks an hour with no benefits or any hope of being hired in.
Root cause of problem= management thinking they know more than a 30 year veteran machinist and inability to admit when they are clueless.
I asked if anyone in the meeting could come out and try to run the swissturn job or even turn it on.
Management said the pay scale for the swissturn operator was non negotiable.
I replied you get what you pay for. I personally would not want a 0 skill level temp running 1/4 million bucks worth of new equipment.
That afternoon this week's operator loaded an oversize greasy bar in the barfeed.
I get a new operator Monday but wont get parts until I fix the cracked collet holder, cracked guide bushing and realign the main slide.

Sorry for the long rant, but this shit hits close to home since I gotta fix what they wreck.

Maz

michiganbuck · Jun 14, 2014

maze ... good point
management threatens "you do it right or else"
Or else you will be out the door ... and I will be out big bucks.

go figure

AlfredLyon · Jun 15, 2014

Gobo said:
After beating my head against the wall for over twenty years trying to get management to set up some type of structured training program, I am feeling somewhat frustrated. It seems that they think " All you are doing is pushing a button, how hard can it be?" I have seen jaws torn off chucks, destroyed spindles, thrown parts, and you name just about everything else, almost all directly related to no, or poor training. Is it just where I work, or what? What is your managements take on training?

I have been with the same company for over 27 years. We manufacture special cutting tools of most types. We have manual machines both for machining and for grinding. We also have many CNCs for machining and for grinding. When I started it was the owner, his son, and five others. Myself and one other had done machining training at the local occupational center and then after being hired attended college for CNC programming and tool and die making. As we learned from the owner and his son we started hiring people with no experience and then we would train the new people. The company continued to grow and hire and train. Fast forward to now , we have over 35 employees with very low turn over and always train anyone that shows an eagerness to learn. The value of training any and all employees for us is tremendous. With over 25 CNCs we have zero operators. If you are going to push a button here you need to know what is going to happen. We have attempted to hire people with experience and it has never worked for us even though that is the norm and works perfectly for many companies. Any way, great topic and I hope I haven't bored you.

@alfredlyon on Instagram

rcoope · Jun 15, 2014

There always a problem when you have a company with multiple skill sets and in the cases above, where the management is drawn from some other talent pool than the machine shop floor. For example, suppose you have a couple of machinists in a hospital. Where do you think the senior decision makers come from? I've been in the fortunate position of being able to articulate the needs of a shop to non engineering management, to explain the benefits of training and new equipment, to decision makers to get our shop and others to the next level of productivity. And it's worked well, but you do have to be articulate!

For the original poster, I would try to track the results of poor training. You have those anecdotes of stuff flying out of chucks but if you actually have a document with dates and costs you can start to show the real financial impact. You can likewise work to get concrete examples of the upside of training or new equipment. How much faster will we be prototyping if we have a newer CAM package, or learn to use the CAM package we have to its full potential? That sort of thing.

DMF_TomB · Jun 15, 2014

AlfredLyon said:
I have been with the same company for over 27 years. We manufacture special cutting tools of most types. We have manual machines both for machining and for grinding. We also have many CNCs for machining and for grinding. When I started it was the owner, his son, and five others. Myself and one other had done machining training at the local occupational center and then after being hired attended college for CNC programming and tool and die making. As we learned from the owner and his son we started hiring people with no experience and then we would train the new people. The company continued to grow and hire and train. Fast forward to now , we have over 35 employees with very low turn over and always train anyone that shows an eagerness to learn. The value of training any and all employees for us is tremendous. With over 25 CNCs we have zero operators. If you are going to push a button here you need to know what is going to happen. We have attempted to hire people with experience and it has never worked for us even though that is the norm and works perfectly for many companies. Any way, great topic and I hope I haven't bored you.

@alfredlyon on Instagram

.
i have been on the experienced side getting hired for a job. even so it usually takes me a month to learn a cnc if i have never used that type before. for example a mazak m32 or a fanuc 15 control. i just work side by side with a experienced person and take notes and create a checklist sheet.
........ i was taught to use a checklist to make sure i did not forget anything before starting. similar to a pilot checking the airplane before taking off. i have been able to work on other cnc machines and come back 6 months later and operate a cnc with no problems. other machinist often have problems because even just 6 months later they forget a lot of stuff.
........ we also used a checklist for things to check for setup and after machining. basically for quality purposes. i call them checklists but other places just call them a procedure.
......... being over 50 years old and having trouble getting hired for a job because they only want people who need zero training or 100% training is frustrating. often if you try the right experienced people they will pick it up quickly if given a chance.

AlfredLyon · Jun 15, 2014

rcoope said:
There always a problem when you have a company with multiple skill sets and in the cases above, where the management is drawn from some other talent pool than the machine shop floor. For example, suppose you have a couple of machinists in a hospital. Where do you think the senior decision makers come from? I've been in the fortunate position of being able to articulate the needs of a shop to non engineering management, to explain the benefits of training and new equipment, to decision makers to get our shop and others to the next level of productivity. And it's worked well, but you do have to be articulate!

I was not saying that our way is a problem. It works for us. People that we hire double their salary in one year and make competitive wages of skilled machinists within five years, Also, because of the cross training, everyone knows how to do a lot of different jobs and so if anyone is out there is no down time. The original question was what is our managements take on training. Ours is , the more training the better.

BillT · Jun 15, 2014

Gobo said:
After beating my head against the wall for over twenty years trying to get management to set up some type of structured training program, I am feeling somewhat frustrated. It seems that they think " All you are doing is pushing a button, how hard can it be?" I have seen jaws torn off chucks, destroyed spindles, thrown parts, and you name just about everything else, almost all directly related to no, or poor training. Is it just where I work, or what? What is your managements take on training?

Here's the deal: Back in the day, employers trained their employees on the company time AND dime. Seems crazy now doesn't it? They knew they'd get that investment back in spades. Now we have the new economy: CORPORATE WELFARE. That is defined as - The employer sends the employee to a State paid training program usually at a Community College. This is done AFTER work on the employee's own time. The company pays absolutely nothing. Not one cent. The residents of the state pay that subsidized tuition in the form of taxes. It is welfare in its purest form. The states felt obligated to take up the slack after companies decided it was not worth it on their dime. Great.

rcoope · Jun 15, 2014

AlfredLyon said:
rcoope said:

I was not saying that our way is a problem. It works for us. People that we hire double their salary in one year and make competitive wages of skilled machinists within five years, Also, because of the cross training, everyone knows how to do a lot of different jobs and so if anyone is out there is no down time. The original question was what is our managements take on training. Ours is , the more training the better.

Click to expand...

I actually meant to elaborate further on your example because I would imagine your situation is precisely the opposite of the OP's. Your boss evidently has an intimate understanding of what the shop is doing and why training is needed, which is fantastic.

I've worked around research facilities forever, both in physics and healthcare and most of the time things run OK because the people in charge either have experience direct with instrumentation or are just really smart and can understand other people's problems in a hurry. We have a new research building near my place however, which has a lot of biomedical test instrumentation but seems to be run by people with no real instrument experience at all or actually no equipment management experience. They have an engineer over there who constantly has to explain about when you buy a drill press you still need to by drill bits and stuff so you can use it. Unfortunately he's a bit young and doesn't have a grad degree which is a big help when dealing with life science people so it's a challenge.

Gobo · Jun 17, 2014

I started this thread, and here is something I did not mention that is almost incredible. The team leaders are picked by popular vote. Can you believe that? So we have a bunch of people,(some with no machining experience,) making critical decisions. Sometimes I feel like I am in a Dilbert episode. :nutter:

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