New Machine (Fadal 3016L) Coming :) and a question...

Hello Folks, I've touched on this briefly on another thread, so I started this one to make it official Next week, riggers will be delivering a new (to me) Fadal 3016L. After 5 yrs. using my Mikini 1610L, I felt it was time to get something with a tool changer. I've been searching for the past 7 months and put many a mile on my old F250 and finally committed on this Fadal.

According to the paperwork, the Fadal came out of a GE Aircraft Engines facility. I don't know how many hours it has on it. I took a crowbar and a dial test, to check for play in the linears and all went well. I was able to see it run and was happy to hear how nice the spindle and servos ran at all speeds. The machine is in pretty good shape cosmetically, in that paint inside the machine's sheet metal, is almost all there.

The Fadal comes with a 7.5k spindle, rigid tap, Renishaw (MP12) probe and tool setter and it comes with a small pallet changer. I was especially surprised to see it had a pneumatic door closer setup, to open the front doors

The one thing it does not have, is the coolant tank. I've seen the cost of one from the FadalCNC site, a bit out of my price range. I took measurements and I think a pickup truck tool box ($50 on craigslist) and a Harbor freight pump, may be just the ticket. I'll post my solution when I do it.

So why did I buy the Fadal, as mentioned, I wanted a tool changer. The Mikini, after completely upgrading everything electrical on the machine (controller, spindle motor, steppers the whole nine yards), ran great for the past 4 years. I just felt the need to step up. I'm not looking for 1000ipm rapids. the speeds out of the Fadal will work just fine for me.

I will be converting the mill to single phase. I'll post my adventures with that

I also didn't want to get into any debt. I had a set budget for this transition and wanted to stay in it.

Here are the cost of my transition:

Fadal 3016L.... $9000.00
Moving and rigging....$2000.00 (ouch!!)
Electrical Hookup.....$250.00 (wire and conduit, I do my own electrical)
Transformer for control electronics.... $150.00
Tooling....... $450.00 (all used cat40, enough for my needs)

My budget was $13,000 cash. That leaves me with $1200.00. Which will help with things like new coolant, new end mills and such.

and now for the question, as I never used one, the Renishaw MP12 Probe, what kind of accuracy do these probes have ?? What is their repeatability ???

Lastly, I wish you all a Great and Happy New Year !!!!

Cheers!!!!

pete

Pete congrats on the new machine. I picked up my Fadal VMC20 last year. It's been great having the tool changer and being fully enclosed the shop stays a bit cleaner. Having flood coolant is also helping me to ramp up the feeds & speeds too. I was able to get mine moved with a rollback for $400. Once it got unloaded to the concrete pad in front of the shop I was able to move it in with 1" water pipes, a come-a-long, and a pry bar. Mine doesn't have a probe so I can't help with that, but if you have questions maybe I can help.

J. Clear

I read this on the phone last night, but had to wait until this morning to comment.

Your desire to convert this to single phase is ill-advised. You will not find a suitable single-phase spindle motor for the price it costs to make your own 3 phase with an RPC.

The other thing I don't think you've thought through: a VFD doesn't make a single phase motor change speed. You cannot change the speed of a single phase motor (yes, I know how broad that statement is, but consider the application).

Just buy or make an RPC and use the machine as it is.

You also stated that you needed a transformer for the electronics, why? The Fadal comes with a 240-120v transformer on-board, you don't need anything.

I suggest that you sell the Mikini and use that money to get tooling and an RPC for the Fadal.

That Fadal and Mikini are in such different classes, you will be learning anew all over again.

I implore you to leave the Fadal alone and just use it, there isn't much you can do to that machine to make it better, and when I say "much", I mean doing a complete control retrofit with something modern. A rigid tapping 7500 rpm Fadal is a good machine, don't do anything that will devalue it or make it worse. You will appreciate just how good it works if you use it before doing any considered modifications.

Also, if your idea of converting it to single phase is to replace the VFD, well, then you'll lose the rigid tapping function, they require a special VFD. An RPC will be cheaper than a new 15-20HP VFD, and it'll rigid tap.

Perry Harrington said:

I read this on the phone last night, but had to wait until this morning to comment.

Your desire to convert this to single phase is ill-advised. You will not find a suitable single-phase spindle motor for the price it costs to make your own 3 phase with an RPC.

The other thing I don't think you've thought through: a VFD doesn't make a single phase motor change speed. You cannot change the speed of a single phase motor (yes, I know how broad that statement is, but consider the application).

Just buy or make an RPC and use the machine as it is.

You also stated that you needed a transformer for the electronics, why? The Fadal comes with a 240-120v transformer on-board, you don't need anything.

I suggest that you sell the Mikini and use that money to get tooling and an RPC for the Fadal.

That Fadal and Mikini are in such different classes, you will be learning anew all over again.

I implore you to leave the Fadal alone and just use it, there isn't much you can do to that machine to make it better, and when I say "much", I mean doing a complete control retrofit with something modern. A rigid tapping 7500 rpm Fadal is a good machine, don't do anything that will devalue it or make it worse. You will appreciate just how good it works if you use it before doing any considered modifications.

Also, if your idea of converting it to single phase is to replace the VFD, well, then you'll lose the rigid tapping function, they require a special VFD. An RPC will be cheaper than a new 15-20HP VFD, and it'll rigid tap.

Click to expand...

Cheap trumps logic, ALWAYS.

I beg to differ. According to Fadal manuals, the machine can run on single phase. Here's an excerpt from the manual.

The Fadal VMC line is designed for three phase input power. However, threephase
power is not always available. If this is the case, Fadal offers a singlephase
input power option (this would be the t812 single phase transformer). All Fadal machines are capable of operating on
single-phase line input. The torque ratings will be at 60% of the published
performance. The rapid traverse rate is reduced to not more than 700 IPM for
machines with higher speed capability.

and here's Fadal's view on using a RPC:

The Normal Fadal VMC requires three phase-input power. The machines are
also configured in a single-phase power configuration when requested (using their T812 xformer). Some
customers prefer to use rotary phase converters, however Fadal does not
recommend the use of rotary phase converters.

I realize that there will be a loss in HP and Torque. I'm only machining aluminum, so there shouldn't be any issue.

As for rigid tapping, here's a fellow with basically the same machine on single phase, doing rigid tapping...

CNC Mill Rigid Tapping Walkthrough - YouTube

In my post, nowhere did I mention that I was replacing the spindle, controller, etc. on the Fadal. As you can see from the link above, a Fadal is very functional on single phase... no need for a RPC, no need to change the spindle to a single phase motor (why would I ???), no need for a VFD... when the current drive will work on only two legs, as would the servo drives. The transformer I plan to install, is just for the 120 volt control portion of the machine (Step down xformer 240 to 120). The spindle drive, as well as the servo drives are connected directly to my 240 volt line.

Also, I'm not cheap. This is as much as a hobby, as it is my business. I'm not afraid to experiment. I do all my own repairs...mechanical, electrical, etc. The Mikini will continue to make parts, while the Fadal is converted to run on single phase

Lastly, let's keep the negativity out of this thread. I was hoping to post my progress in this conversion, so that others could benefit. If you think I'm pissing in the wind, then just move on. No need to get your you know what in a ringer

Cheers!!!

pete

slowtwitch said:

Lastly, let's keep the negativity out of this thread. I was hoping to post my progress in this conversion, so that others could benefit. If you think I'm pissing in the wind, then just move on. No need to get your you know what in a ringer

Cheers!!!

pete

Click to expand...

Wow.........first time I've ever seen a guy crap in his own thread!

Good luck getting any help with that attitude!

Happy New Year!

Single phasing requires 1.73 the current capacity of 3 phase, you also derate to 60% of rated power. The transformer they call out is $900, a 20HP CNC rated RPC is $1500 and you will get full rated power. The single phase supply will be confined to just the RPC near the electrical panel, which saves you a lot of money in wire.

You can run 30amps per phase on 10ga wire, a 20HP CNC RPC is good for 25A and a 10HP machine.

I was not aware that Fadal *said* you could run off single phase. I *do* note that the only VFD certified for single phase was the AMP-0006.

Last year the CNC RPCs were $1100, they've had a price increase: https://www.temcoindustrial.com/temco-xr15-rotary-phase-converter-15-kw-20-hp.html

to convert to single phase you have to change the main transformer not the controller power supply
never seen one for $150.
that's all you have to change is the main transformer.
down side is you do lose hp and maybe some servo speed.
I actually asked the guys at its about doing it.
opted for a rpc instead with a dc servo machine you do lose speed
for me that was the better way to go.

as far as the coolant tank there isn't really anything special about it.
any thing that is the right general shape will do need somewhere between 25 to 50 gallons,
and need to have screens to keep the chips out
the pump well you want a good one you need enough pressure and volume

I bought a single phase transformer (t813 because mine is a dc servo machine) and could not get it to run off single phase. I could get the servos and axis to work, but my spindle inverter would not power up, so now I have a useless t813 sitting on the floor. It may cost more, but think a digital phase converter is the way to go, but that is just my experience so take it for what it is worth.

I read the Fadal manual, and their reasoning for not recommending an RPC is based solely on balancing. A CNC rated RPC by a reputable manufacturer will work fine.

I have a CNC rated RPC and it's within 5% leg to leg at idle and under load. It also has power factor correction to make the power company happy.

I ran this RPC in my shop in 2010, all of my 3ph equipment ran off of it and none of the 5 *different* CNC machines had a lick of trouble. I had a Hardinge CHNC-I with Fanuc spindle drive, AC servos, and Siemens control, Brother tapping center (AC servos and VFD), HAAS VF-0 (VFD and DC servos), Shizuoka AN-S (DC servos and Centroid control), and Tree VMC1050 (Yaskawa AC servos/motors and drives with Dynapath control).

I now run that 20HP RPC in my garage at home and still have the Hardinge and Fadal VMC40.

I can't justify buying a Phase Perfect for the equipment I needed to run.

The later DC machines seem to be slightly different than the earlier units, my machine has 1 leg of the 3ph that powers all of the single phase loads via a 240-120 ACME stepdown transformer. I made sure to wire the power-company supplied phase to this input on the machine, the generated phases run the VFD and it doesn't seem to care one bit.

Get a CNC rated RPC and be done with it.

Instead of wasting time experimenting with converting to single phase you could be making parts on the machine. That's if your truly running a business rather than a hobby.