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New Machine Maintenance Expectations

Nerdlinger

Stainless
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Location
Chicago, IL
We have/had lots of older equipment for a long time, along with which were more-or-less "normal" maintenance issues for "older" equipment, and then we were finally in a position to start investing in some new equipment. The first one we got 4 or 5 years ago was a Brother S2Dn. We run it two shifts (dedicated part) cutting steel with "HSM" paths, maxing out the spindle RPM, etc. and have not had a single maintenance call yet (except, of course, for the time I rapid crashed the spindle :o but that was MY fault).

Now I do not know if we got lucky on that machine or what but since then we have bought three other new machines - one other reputable mill, one reputable swiss machine, and one reputable fixed headstock lathe and have had little this's and that's with all of them. Auto door's alarming out for no good reason (probably a goofy sensor:nutter:), 4th axis alarming out from time to time(just keep turning the machine off and on to fix this one:nutter:), rotary guide bushing sensors getting clogged with chips and breaking (I guess we're supposed to clean that out after every job now? :nutter:), way cover screws backing out and snagging the seals :nutter:(I guess we're supposed to add that one to the PM!?!? - "Check to make sure way cover screws aren't backing out",) :toetap:

Anyways, can you share how many times you have had a machine failure within the first couple years due to something other than lack of normal PM? Something analogous to a servo amp or prox switch crapping out after 6 months...It might not be a huge deal to fix or have fixed but still....

I'm guessing I just got lucky with the S2Dn and maybe set the bar too high on my expectations of new machines but wanted to see what y'all have experienced. Time is money in this biz and we're all good at diagnosing and fixing switches, turrets, overloads, etc. so we usually end up fixing it ourselves so we can get back running instead of making some big stink out of principle and holding out for the service guy to show up but sometimes I wonder if the MACHINE manufacturers are taking advantage of the fact that most of their customers are good at FIXING MACHINES.

Any feedback would be appreciated. Thank you!
 
It's impossible to answer.

A Ford Escort needs less maintenance than an F15, but if you need to win a war, do you want a fleet of Escorts?
 
It's impossible to answer.

A Ford Escort needs less maintenance than an F15, but if you need to win a war, do you want a fleet of Escorts?

I agree with your point, but then are we saying that more modern, productive equipment is unfortunately also more prone to component failures within their first couple years of being in service, as if the "productivity" enhancements have outpaced the "reliability" enhancements of the same machines? (That's my suspicion.) In which case the general sentiment would be, "Yeah there's a lot of stuff that goes wrong that you need to be ready to fix, but man-o-man are they fast when they ARE working!" :skep:

Disclaimer - we are OEM and have lots of manufacturing processes to maintain so it's not like all of our attention is on CNC stuff so it is also possible that, with our attention divided, CNC problems are more of a pain for us than in other shops that fix CNC problems every day so it's just business as usual for them whereas for us, say, taking apart a turret kind of sucks.
 
I think Brother does a lot of little things that make a difference. Others have testified how easy the spindle is to change. Before I bought the first one, I visited another shop that had a 450. He couldn't remember an issue, ever.
I bought a Takisawa lathe just a bit ago. How the sheet metal fits, how easy it is to see the way lube bottle, clean the coolant tank, etc - these are much better than the 2 Haas lathes I had before.
The machines I had before made enough money to buy these, so I don't "hate on them." Life is much easier now.
:)
 
Sometimes a builder makes a bit of a booboo in the design of a new machine. I've learned the hard way to not buy the first and maybe even second year of production of a machine. The first year or 2 most new machine models get a slew of tweaks that help reliability.

A lot depends on how each user runs (and maintains) their machines too. I've seen things like weirdly aimed coolant lines cause switch failure. Drain hole plugged with chips cause coolant to get into a servo and so on.

Higher end builders usually do a better job of thinking of these type problems and taking them into account in their design and construction. Sometimes though you'll be surprised at how good a lower end machine performs. On a new machine, I'd expect no more than a couple warranty service calls in the first year and then no more than one need for service (other than "normal" maintenance, operation errors or accidents) per year thereafter for several years. More than that would be unacceptable and cause for discussion if future machines from the same builder were being considered for purchase.
 
A lot depends on how each user runs (and maintains) their machines too. I've seen things like weirdly aimed coolant lines cause switch failure. Drain hole plugged with chips cause coolant to get into a servo and so on.

Higher end builders usually do a better job of thinking of these type problems and taking them into account in their design and construction. Sometimes though you'll be surprised at how good a lower end machine performs. On a new machine, I'd expect no more than a couple warranty service calls in the first year and then no more than one need for service (other than "normal" maintenance, operation errors or accidents) per year thereafter for several years. More than that would be unacceptable and cause for discussion if future machines from the same builder were being considered for purchase.

Okay, cool. That fits with what I've seen....like your coolant example (whereby depending on which side of the bed I wake up on I might either feel like 1) what the hell now this machine can't tolerate a little coolant? or 2) well now we know to keep an eye on that one coolant line and move on with my life.) And then maybe one call per year to fix or replace some thing that broke for whatever reason. So maybe I did just get lucky with that first Brother...even for "a Brother."

Thanks! :cheers:
 
The company I work for bought 9 new mazak mills and lathes about 16 months ago and we haven't had very many issues with them at all which is great. Minor issues like some teething problems getting bartec barfeeders to work properly with the lathes is about the only real problem I can think of that required 3-4 call outs from john hart the mazak distributor and bartec themselves to come and solve the problem and thats about it. We try to do a good clean up every week of any swarf and other stuff like that and then every month we do a top to bottom clean of all the machines and we have a service of all the machines starting very soon which should see them running like new for a long time to come hopefully.
 
....like your coolant example (whereby depending on which side of the bed I wake up on I might either feel like 1) what the hell now this machine can't tolerate a little coolant? or 2) well now we know to keep an eye on that one coolant line and move on with my life.)

Funny! In that example, the customer was feeling the first way about the machine initially and then the second after we figured out why the switch was failing. Customer calls for service saying Z won't home on their almost new VMC (old table guard only design). Show up the next day and it homes just fine. Watch it for a while and leave. Some days later get the same call. Show up next day and it's fine again. Scratching my head a bit now. Long story shortened.. Operator did not like the coolant line on the right side of the spindle when face milling as it would get him wet. He would point the line back toward the column. Sometimes it would be spraying on the side of the head and soaking the reference limit switch which was mounted on the side of the head. The switch was not rated for "immersion" and would fill with coolant.....
 
That kind of reliability isn't strange for a Brother from what I have heard around here... Tony would probably be the best person to answer that seeing as he has real data and a very large amount of it.
 
Funny! In that example, the customer was feeling the first way about the machine initially and then the second after we figured out why the switch was failing. Customer calls for service saying Z won't home on their almost new VMC (old table guard only design). Show up the next day and it homes just fine. Watch it for a while and leave. Some days later get the same call. Show up next day and it's fine again. Scratching my head a bit now. Long story shortened.. Operator did not like the coolant line on the right side of the spindle when face milling as it would get him wet. He would point the line back toward the column. Sometimes it would be spraying on the side of the head and soaking the reference limit switch which was mounted on the side of the head. The switch was not rated for "immersion" and would fill with coolant.....

Thanks, Vancbiker! That's exactly the type of stuff I'm talking about. The guide bushing sensor on one of my swiss machines got chips wrapped around it and broke it to the tune of like $2,000. On one hand I'm like "so am I supposed to not make chips with this machine?" but it sounds like regardless of my idealistic desires I really should expect things like that to happen, learn from them (in this case, make sure to check on the cleanliness of that sensor from time to time) and move on. Thanks, again, for sharing!
 
I agree with your point, but then are we saying that more modern, productive equipment is unfortunately also more prone to component failures within their first couple years of being in service, as if the "productivity" enhancements have outpaced the "reliability" enhancements of the same machines? (That's my suspicion.) In which case the general sentiment would be, "Yeah there's a lot of stuff that goes wrong that you need to be ready to fix, but man-o-man are they fast when they ARE working!" :skep:

Disclaimer - we are OEM and have lots of manufacturing processes to maintain so it's not like all of our attention is on CNC stuff so it is also possible that, with our attention divided, CNC problems are more of a pain for us than in other shops that fix CNC problems every day so it's just business as usual for them whereas for us, say, taking apart a turret kind of sucks.

Simplicity is reliability. The more stuff that machine builders tack on, the more things there are to go wrong. Even if the MTBF (mean time between failures) standards stay the same, just having more stuff means, on average, something will go wrong more often.

I also think that when you're talking about higher end machines and features, the builders push the envelope more and buyers probably accept this at the expense of reliability. I mean, I wouldn't expect an Okuma Macturn to be as reliable as their most entry level 2-axis lathe, and things like higher acceleration naturally wear out bearings and ballscrews faster.

Having said that, some machines are just shit when it comes to reliability. I have never heard anything good about DMG machines. Maybe the new ones are better, but as beautiful as the porn they send out is, I always new it was like real porn - pretty to look at but not reality.

I think this is where Brother stands out. Their machines appear to actually pretty well back up their specs - but it doesn't seem like there is any secret sauce as to why - it's because the designs are simple, and simplicity breeds reliability.
 
Simplicity is reliability. The more stuff that machine builders tack on, the more things there are to go wrong. Even if the MTBF (mean time between failures) standards stay the same, just having more stuff means, on average, something will go wrong more often.

Thanks, Mike and a thanks to everyone else who contributed! We kind of suffer from tunnel vision here as most of the employees here haven't worked very many other places, but this really changes my perception of what to expect out of new machines and how to deal with them. More than the hassle of a machine being down and having to fix it I just felt like we were getting SCREWED but now I think I was just being too picky. This will really help my mindset the next time something goes wrong. Thanks, again! :bowdown:
 








 
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