New Machine On The Way Brother Speedio R450X1

drbkiller2 · Oct 4, 2017

After much research and study I placed the order for the Brother Speedio R450X1.
16K spindle
All the standard options including the over priced lights. No 4th axis for now.
It will replace 3 vintage Japanese machines from the mid 80s and 90s.

4 weeks to prep then into the world of modern high speed machining.

First part is a .7x1x2 steel blank that I machine in 2 operations.

On to the next needs:
Work Holding-Looking at the Chick Base Plate and 4 double vices per table.
Other suggestions?

Tool Holders:
Yamasen is talking about NT Tooling Systems, Yukiwa Seiko, and MST.
These brands are all new to me. There are other brands more discussed in the other threads.
again suggestions?

With the economy picking up I am looking forward to getting this machine up and running.

wheelieking71 · Oct 5, 2017

I have no experience with Yukiwa (never heard of it actually).
But, MST is good shit! I have several MST tools. Love them all.

Tonytn36 · Oct 5, 2017

I've got 4 Yukiwa 4th axis units (170 high speed versions). Never had an issue with one of them, been in series production since 2011.

eaglemike · Oct 5, 2017

You are going to love that machine. Close to a year on mine. Thing is sooo fast and accurate. Keep a watch on chip build up if you are making a bunch. (hope you are)

Freds · Oct 5, 2017

First off, congratulations. (However, this doesn't release you from the need to post pics when it is installed

)

Our first Brother was a R650 and it has dramatically altered our routine in making parts....mostly its the speed that compresses time for all the support functions like programming, fixture design/fabrication, etc. Our production times have dropped anywhere from 30-70% based on both the speed of the machine and how it has altered our approach to making parts.

Tool holders: We started out with Nikken, some Technics and few specialty holders(hydraulic). Our programmer puts the pedal to the metal whenever possible; ultimately we have found Maritool holders to be a very good combination of performance and price.

Vises: Some of us favor Orange. But others in the shop lean toward Chick; reason being they have to do a lot of soft-jaw fixturing and the Chick soft jaws are less expensive (IIRC).

Lastly, if I can ask, what software are you using for CAM? Thanks.

Fred

drbkiller2 · Oct 29, 2017

Machine arrives Wednesday. Will post pictures.

Went with Mari tool holders. Will try mill holders first and see how tool life runs. First part is no drilling and tapping so I won't get to use the awesome features on the new machine. Just high speed material removal.

Went with 4 ea. Chick Vices on each pallet of the machine. This will put plenty of parts under the cutter. Should run 14 minute cycle time per pallet. That will be 50% faster than the current cycle.

Ox · Oct 29, 2017

I am not sure what 50% faster actually means in a time reduction rate.
It must be another one of those bad math equaszions - like "4 times less".
(At least I can understand what they mean...)

It's funny how folks are all bitchin' about this new math that they are tryin' to learn the kids in skewl, when anyone that I know that can doo math in their head learned to doo basically that, on their own.
I'm not sure that it is a good idea for the masses tho?

I understand what 50% as much time is, but "50% faster" in this context could mean different things to different folks.

So, does that mean that you currently run @ 21 minutes? 28 minutes? Other?

... and I'd be much more impressed after you have been running @ 14 minutes for some time with good results, as opposed to what the crystal balls says....
(Show, don't tell. "Telling" is for the salesman.)

----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Jashley73 · Oct 29, 2017

I'm not too familiar with those other brands, but the NT tools collet chucks that I've handled have been superb. Some of the best fitting threads I've ever felt - on anything...

Stoney83 · Oct 30, 2017

I'm going threw the same thing. We just picked up an R450X1 up from another practical machinist member.

We are going with an Orange Vice set up. See attached pictures (the blue rectangles represent my parts)

Most of the time we will probably run with one vice on each pallet. But It looks like we could actually run 2 vices oriented the other way if we shortened up the vice handles. Orange vice also offers some vice pallets which are perfectly sized for this machine.

PM me and I can send you a step file of the T-Slot table... or my set up should you want it. Im probably a week or two out til the machine is tooled up.

Ox · Oct 30, 2017

'83:

Are you bolting your parts down to fixtures on the outbound 8 posts for 2nd and 3rd opps?

--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Stoney83 · Oct 30, 2017

Yeah pretty much.

We don't do any 3rd ops tho. There will be some some quick change fixtures on the riser post. Having 8 post will allow us to leave certain jobs set up.

OX I'm just down the road from you. PM me and stop in sometime. We are in Archbold.

drbkiller2 · Nov 9, 2017

Machine arrived.

Spent all week debugging the program, breaking cutters with dynamic machining, and rewriting the program.

We are cutting 15-5 at 42 Rockwell C. Old program on a Fadal 28 minutes green button to green button for 4 parts.

We are new to Dynamic or High Speed machining and there doesn't seem to be a lot of good info out there.

First try was:
1/2" 5 Flute Carbide End Mill Coated
8000 RMP
250 IMP
.02 Step Over
Flood coolant
Run time 18 minutes to pallet change. (4 parts)

Cut 3 pallets, 12 ea. first and second ops. Then cutter broke.

I could hear it deteriorate at each pallet.

I found a video of a Haas running the same material at:

1/2" 5 Flute Carbide End Mill Coated
6000 RMP
130 IMP
.02 Step Over
No Coolant

We are going to give this a try with .02 step over.

As you can see, we went with the Chick vice setup. Standard is 2 vices. We added 2 more. Base plate is made for Brother machine.

I will keep you posted on progress. Until May the machine will run this one part 2 shifts per day.

Sorry, I don't know how to rotate the photos.

Ox · Nov 9, 2017

I found a video of a Haas running the same material at:

1/2" 5 Flute Carbide End Mill Coated
6000 RMP
130 IMP
.02 Step Over
No Coolant

We are going to give this a try with .02 step over.

Well that would put you slower than the Fadal/process.

???

-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Jashley73 · Nov 9, 2017

drbkiller2 said:
Spent all week debugging the program, breaking cutters with dynamic machining, and rewriting the program.

We are cutting 15-5 at 42 Rockwell C. Old program on a Fadal 28 minutes green button to green button for 4 parts.

We are new to Dynamic or High Speed machining and there doesn't seem to be a lot of good info out there.

<...snip...>

I could hear it deteriorate at each pallet.

Are those numbers arbitrary, or did the cutter manufacturer suggest those numbers? 15-5 @ 42hrc is no walk in the part, and on a 30-taper machine, you're probably stretching the limits of tool rigidity with a long 1/2" endmill. Moreso if the holder is not super-short.

Yamazen would be a good place to start, but you need to work with a reputable tooling guy. I used to work for Seco/Niagara, so I'm mostly familiar with their products.

My first choice would be a Niagara 7-flute, long length 3/8" endmill. Using book parameters, you would not be anywhere close to 250ipm, even using HSM strategies.

My 2nd choice would be a toss up between a Seco/Jabro JS520 (6 flute) or JS565 endmill (5-flute tapered core) endmills. These will probably offer better performance because of a more expensive coating, but will come from Europe with a price tag to match.

Regardless of which tool you use, you need to be careful and really dial it in...

Finegrain · Nov 9, 2017

High-accuracy mode on or off?
Backfeeding at >> default setting?

Regards.

Mike

eaglemike · Nov 9, 2017

17-4ph, h900 info. Hardness c44-46.
I used HSM advisor to get close on speeds and feeds. I've found happiness using smaller cutters. Mari has a beautiful 7 flute 3/8" end mill made for this stuff (coated TiAlN IIRC), only $.50 more than the 6 flute. I am flooding it. IIRC was about .020 step over. At home right now, don't remember feed rate, maybe 95IPM and 6600 rpm? Depending on geometry, even the 5 fl 1/4 they sell at Mari might work. I ended up ordering some custom stuff from them with a .020 corner radius. Tool life got even better. This was faster than Mari suggested, IIRC. I used BobCad advanced roughing to generate the code.
ETA: side lock holders seem to work the best. I hand grind a flat, since the smaller carbide tools often don't have them.

Nerdlinger · Nov 9, 2017

You say you're using flood coolant...seriously try it with everything the same but swap out the flood coolant for an air blast. The cyclic heating up and cooling the cutter experiences with flood coolant can break it down fast.

DISCLAIMER - This is based on my experience with carbon/alloy steels...not 15-5.

BROTHERFRANK · Nov 10, 2017

This a 15-5 part machined on a 32Bn:

This is another 15-5 part machined on a S700:

Both are good size parts, about 12" x 6" machined .900" deep. The part on the 32B was heat treated, 42 RC. Used a Iscar 5 flute, 3/8 'all in one' cutter with air blast. 14500 rpm, 650 IPM, .015" step over, full depth dynamic milling. Cycle time was 13 min. per part. Tool made 10 parts and we changed it out just because. It was still cutting good.

The second part was annealed. (28-30 Rc). Not so great. Used air blast and tried flood water soluble, tried several brands of end mills and various feeds and speeds strategies and got about 45 min before the cutters were getting loud.
Moral of the story is the heat treated material machines better. You should do well once you get your process down.

jid2 · Nov 10, 2017

I would use a 1/4" or 3/8" tool as others have said, and around that 5%-10% step over. Hard to tell how much material you are removing without the finished part shown. Playing with SFM is important when looking for the sweet spot for tool life.

Having run a bunch of titanium and stainless on by Brother S700 for parts like that I personally would run a 1/4" IMCO M525 5 flute tool at 5% stepover and start at the high end of the SFM scale and see how tool life goes. I'd play with feeds and see what it likes.

drbkiller2 · Nov 10, 2017

Thanks for the suggestions. Lots of great things to try.

Ox, always nice of you to point out the obvious with no helpful information.

I will make some calls to the cutter shops and try some things out.

Will get back with results.

Again, thank you all.

New Machine On The Way Brother Speedio R450X1

Plastic

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Cast Iron

Plastic

Diamond

Titanium

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Plastic

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Plastic

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