New start-up shop, looking for digital probe options

Greetings to all fella machinists!

Although I had my account set-up years ago, I am not all that new here Been lurking some of your threads from time to time and have to admit, it has been an invaluable source of info. Thanks to the community.

My name is Fred (from Canada, Montreal). I've been based in Shanghai/China since 2006 (yes, expat) and anxiously setting-up a R&D shop this coming June 2015 - here in Shanghai (go figure!). Main scope; Mechanical Engineering Design, Rapid Prototyping, Product Design & Retail (focus in Motorsports, aftermarket). Might also do small volume manufacturing as well but that is yet to be defined in the main business scope.

I have recently given up renting VMCs, Turning Centers, and 'outsourcing' all at once since a few months now - you guessed why (quality can suffer greatly here). I-have-purchased-my (own) two first machines and plan on being stand-alone (total relief). Contracts signed; I am getting one HSM VMC and one Turning Center (little flatbed lathe with 6 tool station). Both machines will be running onto the Siemens 828D controller and its proprietary technology (drives, servos, switches, etc etc). Basic kit... again, it's for a start-up co.

So nuff intro... I need some advice from you professionals

I need to look at getting a set of digital Probes for:

1) VMC: to set tool length and diameter
2) VMC: Work offset (edge finder)
3) NC lathe: Tool setter

Ideally plug & play with the Siemens controller with (macro) support from vendor.

Now to my real question: (this is insane writing... excuse my french Canadian btw)

What are our options out there in terms of probing systems? I'd be eternally grateful if you guys could spare a few minutes and tell me about the kit(s) that you are utilizing at work. And Yes, I have already looked into getting the leading industry probing system (from the known UK manufacturer) but that is just way too crazy expansive for a start-up company who've already spent nearly $200K on tooling :/ I am looking at other options available out there. Reasonably priced, reasonable quality.

Care to share your probe(s) with a noob? By all means... the probe in your VMC please lolllll

Thanks

Fred

I use a Haimer edge finder. I find it does everything I need of it. Plus it can be used on other machines. I have the dial type, in English measurements. Vertex machinery works have several tool length setters, all very nice.

We use BLUM lasers for tool setting. They do length, diameter, and tool breakage checks. Pretty sure they do other stuff too, but I haven't learned how to do it yet.

Renishaws for part/edge finding, but you said that's out. From what I read, if you can't get a Renishaw, the Haimer 3D taster is the only way to go. I've never seen one, but hear they're the bee's knees. We've got a couple tasters from Big/Daishowa sitting in the drawers here, but I've never even seen one in a machine... After you get a Renishaw, there's no need for anything else.

I did a lot of research on probes here and found Renishaw has a good reputation for support and installs. I have 4 feeler VMC's and added the tool probes for 20,000 RMB per machine. They actually had the mp-27 in stock in Guangzhou. Install took about a day a piece then the macro training was about 4 hours.

I don't know what brand you are looking at but as I'm sure you know "don't trust a Chinese machine salesman". The very first 4 machines we bought where a Chinese brand and we specified (tool changer and scales). The machines came in ($50,000 per pop) and no tool changers. When we ask the salesman where the changer was he said the operatior was the tool changer. After a long battle we only received 1 with a true changer on it. They are Cutting brand machines and have electro spindles and they go out like clockwork once a year.

We bought two Hurco vm20's and the Renishaw package was $15,000 per machine and they have to be the worst machines I have ever ran. To use the probes takes longer to set up then an edge finder and a 123 block. They are always down for some reason or the other. Once again a Chinese agent and it was so bad they pulled the distribution from them and now we are just screwed on them.

After all all this we switched to Haas. The full spindle and tool probe is $5,000 and the quick code is super fast. The service is second to none here. And right now they have a China sale going on that is 15% off the machine and includes HSM, programable coolant nozzle, conveyor, macros, and a few more goodies. I bought 14 last year and working on 25 this year and the factory down the road bought 1000 haas dt-1's at IMTS so the numbers speak for themselves. Haas does have Chinese agents but is ran by Barry Rodgers from the USA so we don't have the "man bag" salesman problem from them.

I like blum but they seem to not have much support here (2 weeks for a quote then 30 days to order). Renishaw is growing huge here and are UK staffed. We just received a Renishaw AM 250 DMLM/DMLS on time with great training and support so far. IMO,Renishaw is the best choice given your location.

As you are in that part of the world, contact Metrol in Japan. They sell more units in Asia than almost anyone else. The ones they sell are a lot cheaper than the ones from the big three, Blum, Renishaw and "oops forgot the other one..."

Anyway, they have tool setters that are a lot cheaper and still should do what you want and they integrate with the control.

For part probing, if you want to program it to do autonomously, then you will have to pay the big boys what they want. But if you want to do it manually, and I see that you are doing prototypes so you probably do. Then Go with either the Haimer as mentioned or one of the ones similar to the ones Big Kaiser sells. I dont know who they are buying them from but there is another company offering the same kind of items out of Japan as well. See videos below. Looks like Metrol has added a part probe as well, I do recommend them, I have a toolsetter on my milling machine, works great and lots cheaper.

Charles

https://youtu.be/-ammkOszmfs?list=PL235092AC2224359D

https://youtu.be/n4ZeU_sxzr4

https://youtu.be/7uoP_A-Ud_A

Nice one guys, much appreciated for the kind help. I'll be honest the Haimer 3D that Greg and TeachMePlease recommended didn't crossed my mind a second. Good call for an effective (and affordable) piece of kit.

Charles, I did contact Metrol. Twice (desperate ehh lol) and never got a reply. I was looking at their PayPal ready website and sent them an enquiry RE availability using 1) their online contact webform and 48hrs later 2) directly to their support email address. They didn't bothered to reply both times. Not saying that their support is beyond crap here mate... could also well be that their entire IT systems was down for that full 48 hrs

As previously mentioned, that Siemens 828D comes with fancy built-in inspection cycles. Called "Process Measuring With Sinumerik" or something like that(Youtube link) and I was hoping to find an affordable kit that takes advantage of those features. Just toys really, not really "necessary" but I certainly see where it could become useful for some of the parts I am doing (inspection purposes).

So 'cash' talks huh. Macro-wise and support/installation... it appears that there are no reasonably priced & fancy options out there other than what's available from Renishaw. I did contact their sales rep here in Shanghai and very similar to Metrol, they didn't bothered to reply. I have a feeling that the Siemens controller scares the hell out of them all?

Looks like I am going get a 'static' probing system (manual) to start-up with. Can't be bad either... we'll look at upgrading all of that when business kicks in a year+ later down the road. I'm badly poor for now lollll

yea unfortunately if you dont speak Japanese some Japanese companies will conveniently ignore you.

They do sell direct and I dont think they have any sales office in the US. I bought mine on Ebay and made my own board, just controls some led's and uses a couple of batteries. Works great cost me $140.

I also use the Haimer for work setting, like it a lot. Good luck, sorry you didnt have better success with Metrol.

Charles

g-coder05 said:

I did a lot of research on probes here and found Renishaw has a good reputation for support and installs. I have 4 feeler VMC's and added the tool probes for 20,000 RMB per machine. They actually had the mp-27 in stock in Guangzhou. Install took about a day a piece then the macro training was about 4 hours.

Click to expand...

Sweet, RMB20k doesn't sound like heavy damage. I could live with that. Far less than what someone already quoted for my Siemens here (i.e RMB62k). You wouldn't have the contact of the tech/sale guy by any chance?! PM me if you think it is appropriate mate

g-coder05 said:

I don't know what brand you are looking at but as I'm sure you know "don't trust a Chinese machine salesman".

Click to expand...

I actually do trust the Chinese Sales man. I am a fluent Chinese speaker (with a French Canadian accent lol) and can deal with these dudes pretty easy. I am getting a high speed vmc "custom" built by a manufacturer here in Ningbo. Imported everything... ballscrews, couplers, you name it all we have it... not much is domestically made on that thing It's an hour driving away from here so I can regularly go there and follow-up the machine built myself. Not necessarily cheap but there you go... no choice really. I did my share on those 'domestically' made machines/parts for the last 3 years here and I am not sure I'd be ready to buy what's offered 'out of the box'. But I know what you mean mate no worries... I'd never settle for the kits available from let's say Dong Guan or other Alibaba(lol) Sales Man lolll

CBlair said:

yea unfortunately if you dont speak Japanese some Japanese companies will conveniently ignore you.

They do sell direct and I dont think they have any sales office in the US. I bought mine on Ebay and made my own board, just controls some led's and uses a couple of batteries. Works great cost me $140.

I also use the Haimer for work setting, like it a lot. Good luck, sorry you didnt have better success with Metrol.

Charles

Click to expand...

You got that right... Japanese can be brutal if you do not speak the language. Been there a few times and thankfully not all of them are... the younger generation are pretty kind (patient?) and honest.

I am not striking Metrol off the list just for a webform glitch thing no worries. I did read some good review on their products after all

I will get the contact info for you after the Holliday. They will be in the factory on Tuesday so should be no problem.

Top man, really appreciate. Wow... helpful crowd here

Let you know how it went. Enjoy the holiday

Fred