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  1. #21
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Ooopppps brain fart... .0625" yeah thats it...

    So it only pays atterntion to the leading edge of the tool?

    The reason I ask.. is in lots of my designs, the back side of the cutter causes a majority of the problems... because they are tighter "sort of grooves" and such. I was just thinking is there was a way to get the control to know it was cutting with a full radius cutter so when it was coming down into a tight radius groove, it pays attention to the front and the back of that kind of cutter.

  2. #22
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    Sometimes you need to use a different radius offset for the back side of the tool. There are extra offsets available in the control. If you had some feature that you wanted to cut with the back side, you could specify a separate offset for the back side. Lets say your tool is #1. The normal spec for it would be T010101 if you were using nose rad comp. Now, you could go into the comp page and set #11 as I.0625 K-.0625. The K value is negative now because the center is in the negative direction with respect to the (back) cutting edge. To activate this you'd have to go to the toolchange position and call T010111 since neither tool offsets nor comps can be changed other than at a toolchange. I've done this a couple times where I was running parts with a tight toleranced groove, but generally I try to avoid it if possible. My meager mind does well to keep up with the front side, much less the back

    I've got a program on one of my lathes that I use to cut the radius into my tube bender dies using a 3/8 diameter RCMT round insert. I'll look tomorrow at how I wrote it, because I can't remember whether I used rad comp or just programmed an offset path. I'll take a look and let you know because it works and makes good parts. There's some info also in the programming manual on downward cuts and what you need to program to keep from under- or over-cutting them. I'll look back over that too and see if there's anything there that might help you.

  3. #23
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    mrainey is offline Stainless
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    neither tool offsets nor comps can be changed other than at a toolchange.
    I used to do that a lot - change offsets right at the part, or even while cutting.

    For example, if I had a close tolerance groove width, I'd assign one Z offset to the leading edge, another to the trailing. I could control the width without reprogramming.

    This would machine a .100 wide groove, with a finish turn along the groove diameter. Z offset 01 for the leading edge, offset 11 for the trailing.

    </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
    G0 X11000 Z-10000 T0101
    G01 X8020 F30
    G0 X11000
    Z-9000 T0111
    G01 X8000
    Z-10000 T0101</pre>[/QUOTE]I always avoided using radius comp when the front and back sides of the radius were cutting. Not to say it can't be made to work.

    Remember, when assigning TNR offsets, you have to give I and K the correct signs.

    OD turn toward chuck I+K+
    OD turn away from chuck I+K-
    Bore toward chuck I-K+
    Bore away from chuck I-K-

    Use your imagination here - for instance, profiling with the back edge of an internal grooving bar would have the same radius orientation as "boring away from the chuck", even if you're actually profiling toward the chuck.

  4. #24
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    Damn....learn something every day. I had always just ass-umed you couldn't activate a new offset except at a soft limit. I'm gonna try that tomorrow and see how it works since there's been more than a few times I woulda used it if I'd known it could be done.

    Wade, the M30 for a repeat cycle was wrong. I kept thinking about that and checked it today. M31 makes it repeat. From looking thru some more of the jibberish in the programming manual, it looked as if you *might* be able to use the Q's like you mentioned without having to do the full sequence branch to subprogram thing. If I read it a couple more times tomorrow perhaps I'll understand it enough to say one way the other.

  5. #25
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Yeah, thats awesome, I thought the same as you.. tool change and offsets had to happen at soft limits. That will be very handy for some stuff.

    Thanks for the M31... that is no where that I can find in my book that I can find.

    man you would think they would have thought a complete list of commands would be a must for the manual.
    Next week when I get back from archery elk hunting, Im likely going to try the Q in a simple program

    N1 G0 x9 Z7
    N2 T0606
    N3 G0 X9 Z9
    N4 T0101
    N5 G0 X9 Z6
    N6 Q1
    N7 M2

    And Ill start the cycle and see if it cycles through.

    Thanks again!!

  6. #26
    Solar71 is offline Titanium
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    To wade...

    I use a bar puller often...

    Once you M-code the spindle to stop, and the chuck to open, you need to switch to G98 mode...

    Or you will get no movement...

    PS : i ussually use about 40.0 ipm ( G98 G1 Zxxx F40.0 ) for bars under 5 feet long...

    good luck

  7. #27
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    mrainey is offline Stainless
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    tool change and offsets had to happen at soft limits
    Tool changes at the soft limits. Tool offset changes anywhere.

  8. #28
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Solar, I apprecite the feed info... Ill likely start a bit slower just to get the feel of it and move up from there.

    On the code... different control is the main difference between the Okuma and yours I think. Im assuming your G98 is In/min rather than in/rev. Which is what Mrainey and Metlmunchr posted about about (G94,95) as that is the in/min code is for the Okuma. My manual doesnt list G98 anywhere... but that also doesnt mean it doesnt do something. Just a matter of knowing what.

    Wade

  9. #29
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Just a heads up, I wrote some little programs to try the M31 and the Q1 ideas...

    Plus Ill check out the integration of the G94,95 and make sure I have a full understanding on that. And make sure it will operate with the chuck open.

    Metlmunchr, You ever run across a manual with codes?
    Im curious what all is in there...There is a huge pannel of relays... and I just dont quite see "in my mind" all the things that I know it does using all those relays. So Im guessing there is much more "hidden" in there somewhere.

    Wade

  10. #30
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    Wade,
    3 of my Okumas are chuckers, but I checked and every one of them has the relays in place for tailstock advance and retract. They are marked with little stickers beside the relays as M55 and M56. I looked thru a wiring diagram, and all the rest do have some current use. If the stickers are still on the relay mounting frame on your machine, they will identify the relays associated with M codes. The others are primarily used in pilot duty for things like the way lube pump, headstock lube pump, etc.

    According to a friend who's worked on Okuma controls for over 20 years, there is no full printed documentation for all the codes on a 3000 control. He said there were software updates and options which enabled certain things, and while those were documented to the owners with a page or 2 of instructions about their use, there was never an updated programming manual printed that included all this stuff. Basically, if it was an option at the time of introduction of the control, it was doc'd in the manual. If not, there was never any revised printing that included it. This would seem to be accurate info, because I've seen an error list for 3000 controls on Machine Tool Systems' website that was published in the late 90's, and it includes a bazillion different error codes covering functions for which I've never seen any documentation. A couple of mine have the option for direct radius input instead of I, K values for arcs, and another option for direct angle input for tapers, and I've yet to find any documentation for either function. Likely its in a 5000 programming manual and probably works the same way, but I've never taken the time to dig thru a 5000 manual and see if its there.

    Added: Machine Tool Systems is a part of Robt E Morris Co, which is likely the biggest Okuma dealer in the country, but asking them anything about a 3000 control is about as useful as a conversation with a sign post. IMO, there is no control more reliable than Okuma, BUT, Fanuc has them beat hands down when it comes to support and parts availability for the older stuff. 3000's were used up thru 85, and they were obsoleted some time before 2000. 5000's were used into the early 90's and they were obsoleted about a year and a half ago. With remaining new boards for 5000 controls going for $2000 to $5000 each, if they can be found, an older lathe in poor mechanical condition, but with a fully functional 5000 control is worth substantially more parted out than as a complete machine.

  11. #31
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Okay, new question....
    Air Chuck...
    On the control panel, there is an add-on indicator light panel on the left control panel picture

    It says "Chuck Air Pressure"
    Do you think that is an indicator that my machine has an optional Air Chuck... and therefore, a control code for actuating it? Id have to assume that it would be an stand alone unit that just hooked up with a few wires to the control rather than completely integrated.

    How would I go about finding out, if in fact it did, and how it worked and where it hooked up?

    I battle one major problem with this machine... one of the things I do, is made from 1.5" rod, and the 5c collet chuck of course doesnt go large enough, and the 6" hyd chuck that I have, will go big enough, but the chuck actuating tube is to small. The largest that will fit in there is 1.250" so I cant use that. So I started thinking... with the hyd chuck rod removed, I could easily fit 1.5" in the spindle, and with the optimism of the bar puller, it has become more interesting to me to be able to run that 1.5" stuff in the spindle.

    Any ideas where I might find some possible info on this?

    If I could understand the schematics a bit better, and wasnt missing so many pages, Id guess it would be much easier. But Im nervous about just taking a meter to relays and trying stuff. Affraid the back feed could wipe out the meter or the control card.


    Thanks
    Wade

  12. #32
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    On the relay panel you may see 4 relays marked M55, M55H, M56, and M56H. Those are present in a machine that has provisions for an air chuck. There's also a switch on the control panel, similar to the switch for ID or OD chucking, that you switch to either hydraulic chuck or air chuck.

    The chuck you're talking about is a front actuated air chuck. Chuck and actuator built into a single unit that mounts to the spindle. Air lines hook to the rotary union section which doesn't rotate. I could be wrong, but I think these chucks are typically spring applied and air released. Makes for a safety thing in case something causes the rotary union to rotate and jerk the air lines loose. With spring application, the part stays in the chuck.

    These chucks do give you the full spindle bore capacity, but they ain't cheap. A new 10" one is close to $10,000. I've seen a couple 10 inchers turn up on ebay in watching for them for about 5 years, and they sold used in the $5000 range. I'd imagine anyone who's got one ain't turning it loose, because you just don't see them on the used market.

  13. #33
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Oh, ouch... thats pricey...
    Ill have to see what I got on mine. Might explain lots of air fittings but nothing else when I got the lathe.

    I dont remember ever seeing the lables on the relay... but Ill ahve to just look closer.

    THanks!
    Wade

  14. #34
    metlmunchr is offline Diamond
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    That was wrong Wade. Its M83, M83H, M84, and M84H. M55, 56 is for tailstock. Had the possible spares on my mind when I wrote that.

    On all mine, the labels are on the panel next to the relays, and not on the relays themselves.

  15. #35
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Ill check it out this weekend and see what it has. maybe Ill find myself getting lucky in the shop...

  16. #36
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Okay, checked the panel more closely..
    Found the numbers you were talking about...

    It has M55 M56 M83 M84 M83H and M84H

    Then on the back of the cabinet.. it has two switches...

    One labled "Chuck" and has options of "Hyd" or "SMW"

    Then the other is labeled "SMW Chuck" and has options of "OD Grip" and "ID grip"

    I dont know what SMW stands for... but the ID/OD makes plenty of sense.

    So now Im more curious... Im also now wondering how I can figure out where the M55 and 56 wires terminate, so that I could use them for an air mist system.... and not have to have it on all the time. And from there, just exactly how its supposed to operate. Since there is 55 and 56, that tells me, that somehow, the tailstock is actuated with current both ways, so how... a hyd valve that only takes a momentary current to engage one direction and the other code is another relay in the other side.. or if its electric, and just has two relays to control the motor direction... or what.

    So... Im making progress on the research... which is a good start. The schematics I have dont help me much... since Im not skilled at reading them, and electricity is not my forte`

    Anyway... thtras what I know for right now.
    Havent tried the "Q" idea yet or the M31. Hoping Ill ahve time today.

    Wade

  17. #37
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    mrainey is offline Stainless
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    SMW makes air chucks.

  18. #38
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    HHmmmm well then...
    I guess now I have something to think about and dink with.

    I wonder how and where that sucker was hooked up. makes sense on all the air fittings and stuff that I got with it that had no apparent place to go. Darn, woulda been nice if that would have come with it.

    Wade

  19. #39
    Wade C is offline Stainless
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    Oh hey.. just thought of a couple unrelated to bar puller - Okuma question, and figured better to just muddy this thread than start a new one...

    What kind of oil should I be using in the Hyd tank for the turret and chuck? I looked up the specs in the book the other day, and the didnt ring a bell with me... and now I dont remember what it was that it said... but I was wondering if there was some 'normal' oil that is used that I can get at the CO-OP instead of having to order something in.

    Secondly... any ideas for a way to handle coolant through tools on the turret and still maintain functionality of the turret - especially if there were more than one tool at a time?

    Wade

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