Okuma LT3000 vs Mazak Multiplex

wholesale · Oct 8, 2017

We are an OEM looking to insource our CNC machining and don't have a ton of experience running machine tools so I'm looking for some guidance. Our parts are all aluminum and have pretty generous tolerances so the machining isn't terribly difficult. We looked at running 2 Haas machines but we want to buy good machines so we can remove metal as fast as possible. Plan to have these machines for a long time. We also have very high surface finish requirements. (The parts must look beautiful off the lathe). My main buying criteria are ROI & Service. Here are some of my questions:

1) What is your RECENT experience with service and support from these two dealers in Minnesota (Morris Midwest - Okuma and Northwest Machine - Mazak).
2) For those of you with experience running both machines, which control would you prefer? Smooth G or OSP control or does it really matter? The Smooth G controls look sexy and modern with lots of cool features but I don't know if they are any better or worse. The smooth G seems more intuitive and easier to learn but that is looking at them from the 50,000 ft level. I don't have experience with either one.
3) The LT3000 looks more complicated to program safely but obviously would be better at balancing parts and more productive. In the real world, how much more production can I get from balancing parts? I think our parts are pretty symetrical between OP10 and OP20 but I'm sure there will be differences in cycle time between front and back where we would reduce cycle time with an LT3000. The LT3000 is obviously more expensive than the Multiplex...just wondering if it is worth the extra money.

wholesale · Oct 15, 2017

Bump...

Bump...Anybody got some advice?

XD341 · Oct 16, 2017

I can't address many of your specific questions, but Okuma makes really nice stuff and the I like the OSP control. I've never dealt with the Smooth controls but they look neat. I think the OSP is a powerhouse of a control from my own personal experience. Mazak also is known for making quality machines.

Why bring the machining back in? Just seems like a big lift to go from nothing to an LT Okuma lathe. Vendor troubles? If you think you are gong to save money in the short term....you're not.

cameraman · Oct 16, 2017

wholesale said:
We are an OEM looking to insource our CNC machining and don't have a ton of experience running machine tools so I'm looking for some guidance. Our parts are all aluminum and have pretty generous tolerances so the machining isn't terribly difficult. We looked at running 2 Haas machines but we want to buy good machines so we can remove metal as fast as possible. Plan to have these machines for a long time. We also have very high surface finish requirements. (The parts must look beautiful off the lathe). My main buying criteria are ROI & Service. Here are some of my questions:

1) What is your RECENT experience with service and support from these two dealers in Minnesota (Morris Midwest - Okuma and Northwest Machine - Mazak).
2) For those of you with experience running both machines, which control would you prefer? Smooth G or OSP control or does it really matter? The Smooth G controls look sexy and modern with lots of cool features but I don't know if they are any better or worse. The smooth G seems more intuitive and easier to learn but that is looking at them from the 50,000 ft level. I don't have experience with either one.
3) The LT3000 looks more complicated to program safely but obviously would be better at balancing parts and more productive. In the real world, how much more production can I get from balancing parts? I think our parts are pretty symetrical between OP10 and OP20 but I'm sure there will be differences in cycle time between front and back where we would reduce cycle time with an LT3000. The LT3000 is obviously more expensive than the Multiplex...just wondering if it is worth the extra money.

I just want to say a beautifully framed first post!

I assume when you say Mazak Multiplex you mean (perhaps) the newer Multiplex-W 200 and 200y and it's "kin"?

MULTIPLEX W-2Y
^^^like this kind of thing^^^

BTW @ wholesale do you work in or with a DOD (department of defense/Aerospace type environment?) ... From your use of language I was getting that "Vibe"? I could be 100% wrong.

wholesale · Oct 16, 2017

Current suppliers are great, but we are looking to reduce cost and inventory $$. Current suppliers use regular single spindle lathes with an operator standing in front of each lathe. (Op 10 / Op 20 set up with lots of WIP). The reason we think we can save money is because we are planning to put a robot in front of the lathe to autoload, part mark and polish. We looked at doing 2 lathes with a robot in between but that takes up a lot more floor space. Looking to get 8 hours on the first shift + 8 hours unattended run time to help reduce labor costs.

We think we can reduce inventory by running smaller batches. I realize that most people don't think about automation and small batches in the same sentence, but our parts are very similar and we think we can create big groups of parts with common tooling and common work holding.

Why do you say that we won't save money in the short term? I'm genuinely interested in understanding what the pitfals might be from a profitability standpoint. Up until this point we have been content to outsource but we have hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory that can't be written off until it's sold. We can right off machine tools right away through section 179 and / or bonus depreciation. Even without the tax deductions, we think automation will give us enough of an edge to be profitable.

wholesale · Oct 16, 2017

Yes, exactly that machine W-200Y. No gantry but Fanuc robot. 16 station turret.

litlerob1 · Oct 16, 2017

Both Mazak and Okuma are great iron horses. Both have high quality, comparable conversational programming options. I have no experience with the new "Smooth" control. I do have experience with breeds and offshoots of both machines.

2 Spindles and 2 Turrets is a lot. You are looking at an additional 100k in tooling and peripherals, either MTB. The thing I have seen more than anything else is a Salesperson showing you all the glamour and flash of machines like these. (man they are awesome to watch running). BUT once in place they aren't used as much as they are sold. New owners find themselves asking the operators why aren't we doing it like the sales guy said, often. It is a huge undertaking to get one set-up for a job without collision. (better off bringing in a Swiss guy for this) There is a lot going on, it is NOT plug and play. So the investor needs to do a unbiased cost/benefit analysis before hand.

All that said; Mazatrol is easier to learn and get parts off faster. OSP 300 is a more powerful control, period. Do not be confused about Mazak control and Mazatrol. Mazatrol is an internal conversational CAM program that exists at the front of the Mazak control. G-code or EIA is an option that you must pay for. OSP, on other hand is the opposite, meaning g-code out front and the conversational is the option. (Ad-Mac)

Now with XYZCMS-plus "spindle synch" you need to be pretty MFing proficient with conversational programming to do everything. I know Mazak lovers who at times need to use G-code to get the right part off, keep in mind G-code is an option that you must pay for with Mazak.

Point is, make sure you are not being sold, and that you actually need it. Get a real Machinist to look at your parts and talk about time and investment. Really you should be looking at a year before things are slamming off either machine, training, tooling, capacity, limits, maintenance, options, CAD/CAM, set-up---they are both lots of machine.

R

Mooner · Oct 16, 2017

wholesale said:
We are an OEM looking to insource our CNC machining and don't have a ton of experience running machine tools so I'm looking for some guidance.

My parts are mill parts, not lathe parts - but I did exactly what you’re describing (in-sourced manufacturing) earlier this year. I ended up buying an Okuma mill and love it. Big difference, I had spent the last few years learning how to run CNC machinery. Mech Eng class, machining classes at community colleges, vendor supplied training, etc...

I think you should consider hiring someone who is going to be responsible for your machining before you make a machine decision. Might not change your machine choice at all, but...

Also, you might consider a turn-key arrangement with your machine vendor. They have professional applications engineering staff that can program your parts and help you select tooling, define both manufacturing and maintenance processes / procedures and give you a starting list of material vendors. If you guys don’t have in-house experience doing all of this, you might find it very frustrating and it could take you a long time to get up and running. Even being fairly well prepared for this transition, it was 3 months before I was making “production-quality” parts and I’m still certain that 9 months later, I’m making my parts much slower than optimal...

Unless cash is abundant, it sounds to me like you have a lot of business issues to address before you run out and buy the machine. You might also need to consider continuing to purchase parts from your existing suppliers while you get up and running on your new machines. So make sure your budget will fully support your efforts.

As XD341 previously mentioned, it will be a while before you’re able to say that making them in-house is saving you any money... you’ll probably need to buy new tooling and accessories to the tune of 30-40% of the machine cost. Depending on the complexity of your parts, tooling costs could be significantly higher. Don’t forget to factor in total lifecycle costs of owning / running the machine - cost of money (financing), cost of labor, opportunity cost of tying up that money, operating costs like power, coolant, air (you’re going to need a good air compressor and all the costs associated with owning / running it), cleaning, preventative maintenance, chip control / handling / recycling, etc.

Not suggesting hat you not go down this road - just trying to help you in case these items haven’t been already considered... several of them surprised me...

m98custom1212 · Oct 16, 2017

litlerob1 said:
Both Mazak and Okuma are great iron horses. Both have high quality, comparable conversational programming options. I have no experience with the new "Smooth" control. I do have experience with breeds and offshoots of both machines.

2 Spindles and 2 Turrets is a lot. You are looking at an additional 100k in tooling and peripherals, either MTB. The thing I have seen more than anything else is a Salesperson showing you all the glamour and flash of machines like these. (man they are awesome to watch running). BUT once in place they aren't used as much as they are sold. New owners find themselves asking the operators why aren't we doing it like the sales guy said, often. It is a huge undertaking to get one set-up for a job without collision. (better off bringing in a Swiss guy for this) There is a lot going on, it is NOT plug and play. So the investor needs to do a unbiased cost/benefit analysis before hand.

All that said; Mazatrol is easier to learn and get parts off faster. OSP 300 is a more powerful control, period. Do not be confused about Mazak control and Mazatrol. Mazatrol is an internal conversational CAM program that exists at the front of the Mazak control. G-code or EIA is an option that you must pay for. OSP, on other hand is the opposite, meaning g-code out front and the conversational is the option. (Ad-Mac)

Now with XYZCMS-plus "spindle synch" you need to be pretty MFing proficient with conversational programming to do everything. I know Mazak lovers who at times need to use G-code to get the right part off, keep in mind G-code is an option that you must pay for with Mazak.

Point is, make sure you are not being sold, and that you actually need it. Get a real Machinist to look at your parts and talk about time and investment. Really you should be looking at a year before things are slamming off either machine, training, tooling, capacity, limits, maintenance, options, CAD/CAM, set-up---they are both lots of machine.

R

EIA/Gcode is standard on every machine now has been for like 10 years. They will unlock it for pretty cheap especially if you ask ahead time and say we will go a different route if not.

litlerob1 · Oct 16, 2017

m98custom1212 said:
EIA/Gcode is standard on every machine now has been for like 10 years. They will unlock it for pretty cheap especially if you ask ahead time and say we will go a different route if not.

Cool, used to be really annoying as an after thought to the purchase.

wholesale · Oct 16, 2017

Mooner said:
My parts are mill parts, not lathe parts - but I did exactly what you’re describing (in-sourced manufacturing) earlier this year. I ended up buying an Okuma mill and love it. Big difference, I had spent the last few years learning how to run CNC machinery. Mech Eng class, machining classes at community colleges, vendor supplied training, etc...

I think you should consider hiring someone who is going to be responsible for your machining before you make a machine decision. Might not change your machine choice at all, but...

Also, you might consider a turn-key arrangement with your machine vendor. They have professional applications engineering staff that can program your parts and help you select tooling, define both manufacturing and maintenance processes / procedures and give you a starting list of material vendors. If you guys don’t have in-house experience doing all of this, you might find it very frustrating and it could take you a long time to get up and running. Even being fairly well prepared for this transition, it was 3 months before I was making “production-quality” parts and I’m still certain that 9 months later, I’m making my parts much slower than optimal...

Unless cash is abundant, it sounds to me like you have a lot of business issues to address before you run out and buy the machine. You might also need to consider continuing to purchase parts from your existing suppliers while you get up and running on your new machines. So make sure your budget will fully support your efforts.

As XD341 previously mentioned, it will be a while before you’re able to say that making them in-house is saving you any money... you’ll probably need to buy new tooling and accessories to the tune of 30-40% of the machine cost. Depending on the complexity of your parts, tooling costs could be significantly higher. Don’t forget to factor in total lifecycle costs of owning / running the machine - cost of money (financing), cost of labor, opportunity cost of tying up that money, operating costs like power, coolant, air (you’re going to need a good air compressor and all the costs associated with owning / running it), cleaning, preventative maintenance, chip control / handling / recycling, etc.

Not suggesting hat you not go down this road - just trying to help you in case these items haven’t been already considered... several of them surprised me...

Awesome feedback! I read your post 4 times to make sure I didn’t miss anything. We are doing most of the things you recommend including training, turn key, 64cfm screw compressor, continuing to source from our supply base etc. This first machine doesn’t have enough capacity to make all our parts anyway (we buy about 50,000 turned parts per year). I’m a mech engineer and have ads out to hire an experienced machinist. (Not easy to find them though). I also plan to take a bunch of vendor classes and already took a machining class at the community college. The tooling cost was a little bit of a shock though. I had only budgeted $40k

Mooner - are you glad you insourced your parts? Would you do it again?

Vancbiker · Oct 16, 2017

I don't know how a Multiplex is, but the Integrex I dealt with did not have much of a spindle for milling. Cat50 Big Plus size with less than Cat40 rigidity. I'd go Okuma in a heartbeat.

XD341 · Oct 17, 2017

Vancbiker said:
I don't know how a Multiplex is, but the Integrex I dealt with did not have much of a spindle for milling. Cat50 Big Plus size with less than Cat40 rigidity. I'd go Okuma in a heartbeat.

It really comes down to the specific machine between those two MTBs. Milling I'd go Okuma every time, basic turning including the LT machines I'd give to Okuma but I wouldn't refuse a Mazak if the price was right I don't think you can go wrong either way, once you go into complex stuff like a Multus or Integrix it's a horse race. The specific configuration and options would be the deciding factor. I've heard some horror stories about Multus crashes that were effectively fatal for the machine. Okuma just couldn't make them right again. It's one of the weaknesses of the really complex machining centers.

It appears OP has bailed on this thread....

wholesale · Oct 17, 2017

XD341 said:
It appears OP has bailed on this thread....

I'm still here soaking up all the excellent information. For some reason my posts are all delayed by 24 hours or so. It must be that since I'm a new member that they are getting approved manually or something. Good info. Would you put an LT3000 in the complicated machines category? They seem much easier to crash than a multiplex.

Mooner · Oct 17, 2017

wholesale said:
Mooner - are you glad you insourced your parts? Would you do it again?

Mostly yes, but a few things make it less than 100% joy. First of all, my business is just me and my wife, so running the machine and anything associated with it (including CAD/CAM, loading/unloading parts, etc.) means that I have less time available to do other important tasks... will have to grow a bit more before I can justify hiring a machinist, and frankly would probably hire a front-office type (cleaning / inspecting / packing parts, shipping, customer service, etc) before I hire a machinist - that would allow me to go on vacation occasionally with a clear conscience...

But more relevant to what you’re doing:

PROs: my part lead times are way down - using job shops I could never get anything quicker than 3-4 weeks without paying extra and begging / pleading - now I can go run parts as soon as CAD / CAM is complete and material / tooling is in stock... quality is a little better (mostly in terms of consistency), but took quite a bit of fiddling to get there. Marginal production cost IS lower (doesn’t count fixed costs, only consumables) - but that isn’t a truly fair comparison to paying a reliable jobshop. I also have a lot more flexibility if I decide to prioritize a batch of different parts in the middle of a larger production run...

CONs: if I’m not there to run the machine, nothing is made... I only have one machine, so spending machine time making tooling / fixtures directly results in no production... also because I only have one machine, it’s difficult to think I’ll get enough productivity out of a machinist to justify hiring - but could make a lot of sense to run 2nd shift... single machine also makes it difficult to scale quickly - if I had a large spike in orders, I might be forced to use job shops anyway for excess capacity. managing yield is entirely my problem - but also includes managing finishing (anodizing in my case) vendors as well...

Lastly: My Okuma distributor is Gosiger - no complaints at all. I’ve only had a few minor issues and they have always been very responsive and held my hand through everything. Their service and AE team has been exemplary.

Jashley73 · Oct 17, 2017

If you got into B-axis Integrex machines - I know they have glass spindles, and I've written about past experiences with them before.

But we're not really talking about them in this thread.

I'd still go Okuma, but that's personal bias more than anything. There are people who champion Mazatrol, but I wonder how effective it is on a twin-spindle, twin-turret machine. Maybe it's still the bee's knees at such a setup - I don't know.

Service on such a machine will be important as well. Again, judging from past experience, I'd still go Okuma.

Also, ask the Okuma people how much the "Inch -to- Metric Switching" option costs, and they'll probably look at you cross eyed. Ask the Mazak people, and then get out your wallet. If you forget this option when you buy a Mazak - yes, even a new one - there's a 50/50 chance it will show up with the wrong unit-parameters, and you'll be ready to punch someone in the throat.

For 100 reasons - most of them formed by ugly experience - I'd go Okuma, every time...

mkd · Oct 17, 2017

Jashley73 said:
Also, ask the Okuma people how much the "Inch -to- Metric Switching" option costs, and they'll probably look at you cross eyed. Ask the Mazak people, and then get out your wallet. If you forget this option when you buy a Mazak - yes, even a new one - there's a 50/50 chance it will show up with the wrong unit-parameters, and you'll be ready to punch someone in the throat.

For 100 reasons - most of them formed by ugly experience - I'd go Okuma, every time...

Pfft, it'll be right there in black and white on the 45 page quote they send you :willy_nilly:

cameraman · Oct 18, 2017

Jashley73 said:
If you got into B-axis Integrex machines - I know they have glass spindles, and I've written about past experiences with them before.

But we're not really talking about them in this thread.

I'd still go Okuma, but that's personal bias more than anything. There are people who champion Mazatrol, but I wonder how effective it is on a twin-spindle, twin-turret machine. Maybe it's still the bee's knees at such a setup - I don't know.

Service on such a machine will be important as well. Again, judging from past experience, I'd still go Okuma.

Also, ask the Okuma people how much the "Inch -to- Metric Switching" option costs, and they'll probably look at you cross eyed. Ask the Mazak people, and then get out your wallet. If you forget this option when you buy a Mazak - yes, even a new one - there's a 50/50 chance it will show up with the wrong unit-parameters, and you'll be ready to punch someone in the throat.

For 100 reasons - most of them formed by ugly experience - I'd go Okuma, every time...

Captain Ahab Jashley has to get his orange_whale ... ;-)

Mazak has improved things considerably IMO on all fronts since you were thrown under the bus five ways to Sunday. (Maybe your BAD experiences helped with the desire and need to improve things). I think with Mazak there is definitely a concerted effort to close in on the gaps and errors of the past.

I definitely agree with the sentiment to spend a MAJOR amount of time going through the quote/spec sheets (from MAZAK), with a fine tooth comb again and again and again until you almost know the whole thing off by heart and also get other quotes and detailed spec sheets for other variants in the line, that way you know better (by cross reference) what you are getting or not getting (especially for machines coming directly from Japan). I think these days because of those types of errors in the past they tend to throw more stuff in just to make it simpler so there are not so many "Gotchas" or unexpected surprises these days.

On this one I'm definitely not sticking my neck out on Okuma vs Mazak... (in this case)... These multi spindle multi turret machines would be a literal nightmare for me... I have a number salesmen who think this would be the ultimate machine for me (including ones from Hwacheon), but I run out the door screaming... :willy_nilly:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@OP Another consideration is if you are bringing manufacturing processes in house, will you be buying more machines of one type or another type to expand your operations, 5, 7, 12 years from now? Okuma is fantastic iron but some of it not all that affordable for some... Especially for 5 axis... MAZAK has a lot to offer for "Scaling" a company and operation in a relatively affordable way; depends what type of manufacturing you are in. Sometimes it's nice to be able to in large part "unify/standardize" on one platform rather than have 4 different types of control + training issues on the shop floor.

XD341 · Oct 18, 2017

I wouldn't put the LT machines in the same category as a multus or Integrix. I'll never own a production machine without a sub spindle, I use them on virtually every job, they are a no brainer.

Twin turrets are more complicated but not as much as people think. There are a lot of benefits to twin turrets, pinch turning, follow rests, just more productivity on the right parts, doubling the number of tools available..

If you can write code for a single turret sub spindle machine, you can write code for a twin/twin machine. I'd do everything I could to avoid needing an integrix style machine. They are complicated, fragile and expensive. If you NEED a machine like that I'd look at Mazak before Okuma, and I'm an Okuma guy. Mazak is the leader in the b axis machining center world.

My Hwacheon is a surprisingly nice ysmc style lathe. I'm kinda impressed with the build quality. It's a high performance commodity machine, nothing that other don't do but a solid machine none the less.

litlerob1 · Oct 18, 2017

XD341 said:
I wouldn't put the LT machines in the same category as a multus or Integrix. I'll never own a production machine without a sub spindle, I use them on virtually every job, they are a no brainer.

Twin turrets are more complicated but not as much as people think. There are a lot of benefits to twin turrets, pinch turning, follow rests, just more productivity *on the right parts, doubling the number of tools available..

If you can write code for a single turret sub spindle machine, you can write code for a twin/twin machine. I'd do everything I could to avoid needing an integrix style machine. They are complicated, fragile and expensive. If you NEED a machine like that I'd look at Mazak before Okuma, and I'm an Okuma guy. Mazak is the leader in the b axis machining center world.

My Hwacheon is a surprisingly nice ysmc style lathe. I'm kinda impressed with the build quality. It's a high performance commodity machine, nothing that other don't do but a solid machine none the less.

As you said "on the right parts" that part of the equation gets swept under the rug more often than not IMO. That is quite an investment for something you use 10 times a year, when you build 500 P/N's a year. There is a benefit to having the extra tool stations, but is it worth it? I rarely use both turrets at the same time.

Pinch turning is one of those things that unless you are making a pretty decent quantity, is a bull shit sales pitch. The physical dynamic of pinch turning is not something you just load a bar in and go. There are many hours of trial and error, getting the tools just so, and you CANNOT take double the cut. You take .1" deep on a roughing pass doing it conventionally. That does not mean you can take double that if you have 2 turrets. Nor can you increase the feed double. (both items I have been told and both I have tried) There are harmonics to deal with, runout, balance, alignment, part weight and deflection, centrifugal forces. It is definitely cool to do, but it aint like playing patty cake.

Robert

Okuma LT3000 vs Mazak Multiplex

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