Old v new: CNC decision

CaptnBlynd · Jan 6, 2018

I can get a new tormach pcnc440 in my budget, barely and sort of.
I can get a Grizzly 704 new and convert it to CNC. That is a common conversion.
I can get an old (mid 1980s usually) mill like a bridgeport CNC or Shizuoka st-n. The costs are all within about a thousand dollars or so when all is said and done with conversions and modernizing.

I am poor, literally, but frugal so I have a budget around $4,500 to start. I just finished a year at the local community college learning CNC and I have been an avid 3D printer user for years. As a retiree, the idea is to work up to where I am doing one-off jobs for others and using the equipment to produce my designs, which vary widely.

Old equipment, I can afford a larger build envelope but it is old equipment. Smaller new equipment or take some debt? Maybe start with a larger Grizzly? I have never seen a Haas of any age I could afford. Oh, and I am legally blind so CNC is absolutely required. (Yes, I can. That answers all of the "but can you..." questions.) I've "decided" which route to go a dozen times or more for my first CNC mill.

What would you choose with a budget below $5,000 to start setting up a CNC mill? (Yes, tools and accessories add up to much more over time but I'm looking at start-up and plan to invest more.)No time frame, no solid limits.

lowCountryCamo · Jan 6, 2018

I bought a Yang SMV 1000 for 4500. Fanuc OMD. Real machine. Spent another 1000$ getting it home. Just like this machine. I searched nation wide craigslist for several months. Checked everyday. Jumped on it once I found it. Be patient and get a real mill.

Nerdlinger · Jan 6, 2018

I agree with Camo...be patient and find a real machine. Craig’s list and even machine shop going out of business auctions can yield real finds, too! I found some real beauts at Biditupauctions.com. I go to the actual inspection/auctions but you can take your chances and bid on-line too if you want. Good luck!

CaptnBlynd · Jan 6, 2018

lowCountryCamo said:
I bought a Yang SMV 1000 for 4500. Fanuc OMD. Real machine. Spent another 1000$ getting it home. Just like this machine. I searched nation wide craigslist for several months. Checked everyday. Jumped on it once I found it. Be patient and get a real mill.
View attachment 217191

I looked that machine up. That appears to be a very good unit for the price. I'm in no hurry and if I can find that in my budget, it certainly would be nice.

D KIRBY · Jan 7, 2018

CaptnBlynd, this is more of a suggestion to you and a question to the general membership here.

My suggestion to you, would be to look at a Milltronics VMC. You could probably pick up a VM16, with a toolchanger, in the vintage of around 1997 or so that would fit in your budget. They appear to be a good solid machine and in most cases can be run on 3 phase or single phase.

Now my question is. It appears to me that the Milltronic machines are not that popular. Why is that? They are made in the U.S and their customer support seems to be very good.
What am I missing??
Dave

Garwood · Jan 7, 2018

There has been a nice looking Mori MV-jr W/Fanuc for sale in central washington for $3500 OBO on and off for months now, but the ad is not up anymore. There has been a pair of Tree/Kira VMC 200 CNC mills W/10m Fanuc and 4th axis for sale in Vancouver for $7500 for months now as well. I would suggest keeping an eye on craigslist for these being reposted and follow up with them.

Watch craigslist. Most of my shop equipment I got through craigslist one way or another. My theory on craigslist is that if you need or want something search craigslist for it every day for 2-3 months and you will find it at a reasonable price.

I have got several very nice CNC mills for FREE on craigslist. Two were advertised for months for $30k++ I was the only one who went out to inspect them and guess who got called when they had to be gone yesterday????

A few weeks ago I was offered a free 50 taper Kitagawa VMC in good running shape and passed on it.

G00 Proto · Jan 7, 2018

Ordinarily, you would be absolutely crucified for even bringing up a Tormach or Grizzly Conversion around here and the discussion would end there, but you seem to be approaching this with a good spirit, and I'm impressed.

There are frequently good deals on older machines (late '90s) on Craigslist around you, it just takes some trolling. Make it a habit to search for "CNC" in "All For Sale" every morning. Then replicate that search in all of the surrounding areas... Spokane, Portland, The Dry Shitties (Tri-Cities) etc. In a couple of months, you should be able to find some old iron that will do what you want. One suggestion is to speak to your local machine tool repair guy and see what he recommends. I'm not sure where you are in WA, but if you are on the east side, talk to Dave Minerath (spelling... sorry Dave) at Machine Tool Services. He is one of the best in the industry and he will steer you towards a machine that is easily and cheaply repaired. He pushed me towards and Autocon Delta controlled machine years ago, but his opinion may have changed in the last 2 decades.

I would avoid open Bridgeport style machines without a tool changer if you ever expect to make much money. Changing tools will make you want to give up pretty quick.

Pete Deal · Jan 7, 2018

I looked at milltronics at one at one point. The thing I did not like about the one I looked at was that it had a pc based control with a very old version of windows. My experience with machines that use pc's as controllers is that when they get old forget support.

In our craigslist there was a Mazak AJV for sale for what seemed like ever for I think $3200. Seems like these things can be had cheap.

Garwood · Jan 7, 2018

Found it-

.MORI SEIKI..MILLING MACHINE - general for sale - by owner

By the looks of it I would guess it has a 10M or 11M Fanuc on it. A 6M would have a tape reader and an 0M would likely be different colors and I don't think the 0M had the 120 outlet and overtravel release button under the door you can just make out on the side of the control panel.

The MV jr was Mori's low end entry level machine in the mid-late 80's. They are not very impressive by todays standards, but one will annihilate a brand new fully optioned Tormach in every respect. The 10M and 11M Fanuc's are great controls with lots of support. Should be around 6000 RPM 40 taper spindle and 500 IPM feedrate capable.

I have a few similar vintage Mori's and one that has an open table like that with short sides. I really like the open table VMC for one-offs and of coarse it is great for really large or long parts that won't fit inside an enclosed machine. Coolant control isn't great, but flood coolant is still usable.

Vancbiker · Jan 7, 2018

Garwood said:
Found it-

.MORI SEIKI..MILLING MACHINE - general for sale - by owner

By the looks of it I would guess it has a 10M or 11M Fanuc on it. A 6M would have a tape reader and an 0M would likely be different colors and I don't think the 0M had the 120 outlet and overtravel release button under the door you can just make out on the side of the control panel.

The MV jr was Mori's low end entry level machine in the mid-late 80's. They are not very impressive by todays standards, but one will annihilate a brand new fully optioned Tormach in every respect. The 10M and 11M Fanuc's are great controls with lots of support. Should be around 6000 RPM 40 taper spindle and 500 IPM feedrate capable.

No MV JR machines had the Fanuc 6 control. In addition to Fanuc controls that model machine was also available with Yasnac controls.

lowCountryCamo · Jan 7, 2018

Garwood said:
Found it-

.MORI SEIKI..MILLING MACHINE - general for sale - by owner

By the looks of it I would guess it has a 10M or 11M Fanuc on it. A 6M would have a tape reader and an 0M would likely be different colors and I don't think the 0M had the 120 outlet and overtravel release button under the door you can just make out on the side of the control panel.

The MV jr was Mori's low end entry level machine in the mid-late 80's. They are not very impressive by todays standards, but one will annihilate a brand new fully optioned Tormach in every respect. The 10M and 11M Fanuc's are great controls with lots of support. Should be around 6000 RPM 40 taper spindle and 500 IPM feedrate capable.

I have a few similar vintage Mori's and one that has an open table like that with short sides. I really like the open table VMC for one-offs and of coarse it is great for really large or long parts that won't fit inside an enclosed machine. Coolant control isn't great, but flood coolant is still usable.

When I was looking I wanted one of these but could not find one close enough to get. If you can get something with a Fanuc control or Fadal. You will have plenty of support with a large user base. Don't get anything with an off brand control. My Yang is no longer made but the Fanuc parts are everywhere and the rest of the machine is built from common Taiwanese parts with plenty availability.

And don't be put off by the size; you only have to move it once.

mhajicek · Jan 7, 2018

CaptnBlynd, do you have a place to put it and three phase to feed it? That's the hard part for me since my garage isn't tall enough, barely seven feet inside.

ewlsey · Jan 7, 2018

Man, that Mori is 1,000,000 times more machine than a Tormach.

Use CNC prices are so low I have no idea how they can sell these hobby machines. I bought a Tree Journeyman 425 for $100 last month.

Garwood · Jan 7, 2018

Vancbiker said:
No MV JR machines had the Fanuc 6 control. In addition to Fanuc controls that model machine was also available with Yasnac controls.

Are you sure? Mori Seiki MV FOR PARTS | eBay

Looks like the same machine to me.

I think member "Dan from Oakland" has a jr with a 10m on it also.

EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood you. Did you mean that MV jr's never had the 6? Or that I'm wrong about them having the 10's/11's?

D KIRBY · Jan 7, 2018

Pete Deal said:
I looked at milltronics at one at one point. The thing I did not like about the one I looked at was that it had a pc based control with a very old version of windows. My experience with machines that use pc's as controllers is that when they get old forget support.

In our craigslist there was a Mazak AJV for sale for what seemed like ever for I think $3200. Seems like these things can be had cheap.

As far as support goes, how does it differ if the machine is PC based or not?
Is the support the same even after 20yrs. if your control is not PC based?

This is a serious question.....I'm looking for an education.
Dave

Vancbiker · Jan 7, 2018

Garwood said:
.....EDIT: Maybe I misunderstood you. Did you mean that MV jr's never had the 6? Or that I'm wrong about them having the 10's/11's?

Yeah, I was trying to say that the MV JR was never offered with a Fanuc 6 control The 6 series had been discontinued by the time the MV JR was released. Only a Fanuc 10M or Yasnac MX2 or MX3 on them. Never saw one with a Fanuc 11M. The 11M was a more expensive control than a 10M so it probably did not fit the "entry level" machine idea that the MV JR was meant to be. Don't ever recall seeing one with a 0M either. I think by the time the 0M came out the MV JR was being discontinued

Vancbiker · Jan 7, 2018

D KIRBY said:
As far as support goes, how does it differ if the machine is PC based or not?
Is the support the same even after 20yrs. if your control is not PC based?

This is a serious question.....I'm looking for an education.
Dave

My experience with PC based controls is that after just a few years the PC hardware changes and getting new PC hardware that is compatible with to old motion control and I/O hardware becomes difficult and sometimes expensive. One has to start shopping for "industrial PCs" to find an EISA bus for example. The drivers for old motion control and I/O hardware is not updated to run with newer OS versions. Now you get to decide if you want to upgrade old motion control and I/O hardware to something that runs under a new OS or install an old OS on new hardware and hope it runs OK.

It may not be as expensive as buying parts for a Fanuc or other "true" CNC controls, but getting it all back running is usually much more time consuming.

Ziggy2 · Jan 7, 2018

D KIRBY said:
As far as support goes, how does it differ if the machine is PC based or not?
Is the support the same even after 20yrs. if your control is not PC based?

This is a serious question.....I'm looking for an education.
Dave

I think you need to first define what you mean by support.

The hobby machines will give you limited phone support but that will be it. Your secondary support from others will be limited to the small pool of other fellow owners. You will have a very small pool of available used or refurbished parts fro outside the original manufacturer.

In comparison, the industrial iron with well known controls such as Fanuc have a huge reservoir of spare, refurbished, and even new parts. There is a huge pool of experienced users for help. There are service companies and the OEM that can give you on site support albeit at a price.

It is also important understand that the industrial controls are hardened for the industrial environment. Most of the PC based controls such as the Tormach are not much more than just a regular PC with some motion cards added. This means that they do have a significant degree of susceptibility to work place dirt.

I think the attraction to the hobby machines is the smell of new paint and the idea it is a new machine, therefore I will not have any problems.

Ultimately you are faced with the decision between a new hobby machine that will never have the rigidity and usability of their commercial counterparts or a used commercial machine with common spindle and tooling configurations, controls that are likely still fully supported and a very deep pool of user support from owners.

TonyStark · Jan 7, 2018

I think there are quite a few other items to consider with a "real" cnc. First, if you don't already have 3 phase a phase converter plus some serious electrical wiring is going to be a chunk of your budget right there. Tool holders, air supply, work holding and other misc. stuff also adds up very quickly with a larger machine. Also, that "real" machine is real heavy- look into shippaing/ rigging costs for something that size just to get an idea.

Another thing to to consider is that if you break a part on a new $4500 machine it might cost a few hundred bucks. A replacement part on a $4500 used machine could easily be more than the cost of the machine.

Garwood · Jan 8, 2018

TonyStark said:
I think there are quite a few other items to consider with a "real" cnc. First, if you don't already have 3 phase a phase converter plus some serious electrical wiring is going to be a chunk of your budget right there. Tool holders, air supply, work holding and other misc. stuff also adds up very quickly with a larger machine. Also, that "real" machine is real heavy- look into shippaing/ rigging costs for something that size just to get an idea.

Another thing to to consider is that if you break a part on a new $4500 machine it might cost a few hundred bucks. A replacement part on a $4500 used machine could easily be more than the cost of the machine.

I would say you have a different perspective, not a "In addition to those, don't forget this stuff too."

Old v new: CNC decision

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