Opinions on SE Wisconsin machinetool dealers (new)

We are planning the purchase of a new Horizontal, 600mm range. In a couple months, we will be at IMTS looking at options. Really, when it is said and done, the biggest factor will be the dealer. Seems now days, most machines are pretty close and only last a few years before electrical cables, switches and what not put it at a maintenance nightmare our old iron is. Yes, I do know a Makino is better than a Haas. However, is Makino better than Mori; Is Hass better than Johnsford? Not really, besides support. What can anyone tell me from experience what dealers to avoid and what ones are "above and beyond" (if even possible). We are not sure if we are going BMW/Mercedes or Kia/Scion. I don't really want this about machine X being better than machine Y. We have enough threads about that (Unless you have XXXXXX's that only run once a week because you are replacing spindles hourly). I want to hear: "stay clear of this dealer because..." or "I only buy from here because...."

We have a lot of equipment to replace over the next couple years and want to be with a good group.

From experience and the Milwaukee tool show, we know of:

State Machine (Toyoda, Hwacheon)
Equipment concepts (Romi, Leadwell)
Premier Machine Tool Midwest (just heard of them looking at Niigata)
Manske
Dynamic International
Morris Midwest
Concept Machinetool
Midland Machinery (Doosan)
Haas?

Thank you in advance. And I WILL let you know what we get. Seems all of us click on the "new machine day" threads.

no Ellison in your area? they have been really good to work with, and they are very helpful whenever we have a question or issue with our Mori Seiki.

We purchase most of our equipment from Dynamic Int. , and a few from Concept. We have had great support from both to my knowledge. I was just at a Concept machine tool for a high speed machining seminar a few weeks back. They have a very top notch facility there. I certainly will NOT tell you to steer away from those two.

Out of al these dealers-we used to do a lot with State machine years ago when they were the Hitachi Seiki dealer. Once they lost that line they sold us on some other machines, Quantum mills made by Nishida, these were the ONLY machine in the 65 year history of our company that did not even make it to 7 years for depreciation. That is all I will say on them.

Dynamic-we had an OKK ordered from them. We could not work with the terms of their sale. They allowed us to cancel the order and they sold the machines to somebody else.

Morris-I have had good dealings with them but never bought a machine thru them, we did not like Okuma control.

We have bought several Mori Seiki Machines from Ellison, this dealer was mentioned above-we have had very good response and support from them.

It is a GREAT idea you are checking on the dealer support BEFORE you buy a machine.

PM sent.

Ray

Thanks again for the replies. We all know about getting what you pay for. That is my issue. If I'm going to spend 500k on a Mori (example only) I would expect responsive service. If I buy a 200k Hass or Johnsford prepped close, I'm saving 300k but expecting less machine and service. Its the "get what you pay for" trade off we all make that makes sense for our own parts and shop. However, I'm seeing, because of the lack of talent and scruples of dealers, quality machines may not have service to support it. That being the case, why spend the extra 300k? I used to think a better machine meant it would last before needing service. So, 300k well spent. However, as I stated earlier, they all seem to have issues with parts they can cheap out on. Things we don't think about when buying a high end machine. We assume a Taiwanese machine will have cheap cables and switches (example) that is why they are cheap. I think they all do because it works for five years. So again, why spend the extra 300k? To pay for the big IMTS booth? At this point, I feel safer buying a Haas (example) than a Mori (example) if Haas has better dealer support because both machines will need replacing after 5-10 years.

Maybe I'm not thinking correctly because I'm pissed I can not spent the extra money to get another machine that will treat me right for 20 years like I used to. We all have experience with a early 90's Matsuura or Mori that is still running and holding tenths.

I don't agree with your "You get what you pay for" statement. Service should be exactly what the name implies "service". It has nothing to do with purchase price or even your location. Warranty service is paid for by the factory, out of warranty is customer pay. None of this has anything to do with purchase price. Now if you purchase a number of machines that might/should get you faster service times or at become a higher priority. I do agree that you may be getting "less" machine, but the service should have nothing to do with this. Companies need to stand behind their products and remember that a satisfied customer is their best advertising.

Im going to throw my 2 cents out there, but this is my direct experience for this area. Im near Lake Geneva, just south of Milwaukee. I purchased 2 new haas machines within the last 12 months. Have always had good luck with them, and the service was usually top notch. However, it seems, every time we have some service done, I get two techs showing up, one in training, and the other doing the training. I dont care who or what you are, you cannot do a job in the same time, teaching someone, than doing it yourself. At 150 bucks an hour, plus 250 travel money PER DAY, this pisses me off something terrible, but I have no choice!!! The techs have one speed of course. This is Gosiger by the way. I dont know about the rest of the HFO's, but Gosiger for this area, seem to have a our crap dont stink attitude. This is from purchasing the machine, all the way down to repairs. Take that for what its worth, I still like the machine tools in general for the cost. Now, Morris Midwest, I have never had a chance to get around to using their service department, I only got to deal with the most ignorant piece of worthless crap salesman on the planet. I can only assume he lost his job over my deal, but who knows. I have heard nothing but excellent comments about Morris from every direction, I guess I was just the lucky one. With my deal, we ended up refusing to accept a bran new machine, and they removed it from my floor. This was ALL on the salesman, and over time, I came to accept it wasnt the machines fault, only his! ( a new genos lathe )
In my opinion, if your near Milwaukee, you have service for ANY new machine tool within an hours drive. Good or bad reputation, a squeaky wheel will get the grease. So, just like anything else in this world, good service will depend on that company, that service tech, on that particular day, and thats about it. I dont think any of them are actually out to screw anybody, and are all well intentioned. I would say, pick the machine you want, especially in this area, and run with it. We are fortunate in SE Wisconsin to have everyone local.

When I chose Mori, one of the reasons why I chose it is because i have never walked into a machineshop and seen a 20 year old (insert other brand here). Mazaks, Mori's, Okumas. There is a reason why you still see them on the floor doing grunt work....

The other reason is because the big push they doing to move machines. We got a heck of a machine at a price comparable to the taiwaneese crap you see out there. Dont be afraid to beat up the dealer on pricing....

I am anxious to here what you think of Ellison if you choose a Mori Seiki / DMG. I have an Ellison sales rep coming by this Friday to discuss a Sparkling new NLX2500sy machine. I need to move away from Haas for rigidity issues for our Tool Steel work. (m2-d2-m4). Looking forward to a demo of this machine. Good luck with you choice.

gixxergary said:

I am anxious to here what you think of Ellison if you choose a Mori Seiki / DMG. I have an Ellison sales rep coming by this Friday to discuss a Sparkling new NLX2500sy machine. I need to move away from Haas for rigidity issues for our Tool Steel work. (m2-d2-m4). Looking forward to a demo of this machine. Good luck with you choice.

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thats exactly what we got, with the lns turbo chip conveyor and the lns s2 80 bar feed, with ats shorty quickjaw chucks (80 series) for 215k. we got 6 live tool holders with that as well as the 215psi coolant pump, with manual drop down front probe and plug-n-play rear probe. we did get the big bore version (3.15") and 10k live tooling, which i do believe is standard. its a beast, love the machine.

gixxergary said:

I am anxious to here what you think of Ellison if you choose a Mori Seiki / DMG. I have an Ellison sales rep coming by this Friday to discuss a Sparkling new NLX2500sy machine. I need to move away from Haas for rigidity issues for our Tool Steel work. (m2-d2-m4). Looking forward to a demo of this machine. Good luck with you choice.

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All I machine is tool steel, this is why we run mori seiki.

gixxergary said:

I am anxious to here what you think of Ellison if you choose a Mori Seiki / DMG. I have an Ellison sales rep coming by this Friday to discuss a Sparkling new NLX2500sy machine. I need to move away from Haas for rigidity issues for our Tool Steel work. (m2-d2-m4). Looking forward to a demo of this machine. Good luck with you choice.

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Gary,

I used to work in a foll-form tooling shop, where all we turned was D2 - annealed, and at 60hrc. We did this exclusively on box-way Okumas, so you're definitely looking at the right class of machines. (Mori, Okuma, Nakamura...) We had an Okuma Captain L470, which was their "budget" machine for years. I could bury a CNMG432 insert .450" per side, @ 750 SFM and .010" feed, in D2, while keeping the load in the 105%-90% range, and do it all night long if I wanted too. Then do a change-over and hard turn to +/-.0005" with no problem...

That really stinks to hear about your dealings with Morris and Gosiger. FWIW, we have had nothing but exceptional service with Gosiger here in KY. I said all that about to basically say, don't rule out Okuma just yet, (since you're going after tool-steels,) but I definitely don't think you could go wrong with a Okuma/Mori/Nakamura etc...



To the OP - Since you mentioned replacing "other" equipment in the future, besides the 600mm horizontal mentioned, I'd like to caution you about Samsung machines. Dynamic International is the US importer for Samsung Machines, and while they might be a good dealer to work with, after owning several Samsung machines at our shop, I give you a friendly suggestion to look at other machine builders - even if you're still wanting to buy from Dynamic. We've had issues with our Samsungs, and parts availability has proven to be a major headache. Certainly look for a machine that has a factory/corporate presence here in the USA, specifically for parts support.

On the "get what you pay for" topic. Ranchek, I agree with you on disagreeing with me. I do feel we should get service no matter what. However, my experience has been the opposite. We have a 5axis from a "back of a car" dealership. A one man show place. It is a hassle to get thing fixed correctly. It gets done but not as fast or efficient as our other 5 axis which cost more than double the price. Maybe I'm settling and taking it rather than being the squeaky wheel.

Mori keeps getting brought up because you see them in shops running after 20 years cutting tool steel. As I said earlier, is that true any more? If we buy a Mori now, will it be worth a crap in 20 years? I don't think so anymore. I'm skeptical now. I've seen what top brands have been changing lately. The Hermle 600 /800 series was replaced by the lesser "top model" C22/C32 etc. They have an even lesser model B series. Now Mori with DMG, I shutter to think what is china and what not. We don't know any more. I don't think name brands mean crap anymore. I do hope I'm wrong. I am not arguing the fact that you guys with Moris are removing tough material. I'm wondering if it will be doing it in 20 years and accurately like the current 20 year olds we based our buying decision on. If not, why spend the money. Unless a Haas (example) simply will not remove the metal like the Mori. Then you can argue cycle time will pay the difference and throw both machines out in 5 or 10 years.

Either way, once I narrow it down to a couple machines; I will meet the service guys and research the dealer the best I can. It is really all we can do.

I was considering Samsung. I've seen too many posts on this forum to turn me away. More than guys that love them. Thank you guys for that. We are one machine closer.

Man, you would think buying a new machine would be more fun.

Try Machinery Source in Belvidere IL, Great service, great people, great pricing

I see Machinery Source has YCM. I am going to look at them at IMTS. I could not find who reps them in my area. Maybe these guys. They also have OKK but I don't think they are my dealer for OKK. Which is another sore spot for me. Why is it if I love a machine but hate the dealer I'm screwed? Or If I go to a dealer to buy a "X", they try to sell a "Y" because they haven't sold enough "Y"s lately to keep their dealership of them. If I want to buy a Ford and hate my dealer, I go to another dealer. When I do, they are not trying to sell me a Chevy.

I think dynamic carries OKK too - hopefully the are a reputable dealer for OKK in your area?

About the local machine dealers... I suppose you could always call the machine builder, explain the situation, and then buy direct, but eventually you're going to need service - what do you do then?

Isn't Matauura based in Minnesota now? Maybe they have a good dealer close by...

Please believe me when I say..YCM machine tools are hands down the best machines I have ever run especially for the money. They wont nickel and dime you to death. You will never have a service call..(unless your employee crashes!!lol FYI machinery source just picked up the Hurco line as well

There should be no shortage of independent service in the area for after warranty support unless you are dead set on dealer only.

Parts could be another issue. Most parts can be source alternatively cheaper than going to MTB.

That $1 - $10M parts inventory is fine and dandy until the part YOU need is not part of that inventory.

My experience is, (not to recommend any machine over the other) that parts in stock in Taiwan can be here in 3 days DHL. Europe and Japan can not seem to beat 2 weeks for what ever reason.

As far as what to purchase, that's up to you. Pull your boots up. I have a feeling the sh*t's gonna get pretty deep.

PMT, when I read your comment " no shortage of independent service" I immediately looked at your location. WTF, your by me!!!! Who the f do you know to fix machines around here? I know two good guys and guess what;? They're busy as hell and can never spare a moment. I wouldn't mind if you would share some names of some good service around here.

I think part availability has to do with the dealer and importer more than anything. I was able to get an odd tool changer part for a 20 year old Taiwanese machine in three days vs 6 weeks for a more common Japanese part. The difference was the dealer. Unless the Japanese builder is too big to process anything in less than 6 weeks. The whole world is three days away it seems.

And yes, I already have new boots ordered for IMTS.