paper or electronic drawings instructions ?

iso guy been pushing last few years that all work instructions and drawings be from computer monitor and no paper versions used in the shop.
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formally the paper versions of drawings and work instructions at the machine often had hand written notes of possible edits to be done to the electronic versions to update them when the changes have been used or proven to be correct. so the argument is the latest version is the paper version at the machine where used and where it is verified to be correct as it is used.
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i have suggested we stamp paperwork being edited or updated version on the paper versions. but a "office" person who always sits next to a big computer monitor might prefer the electronic version. maybe in the future i will use a big computer tablet connected to wifi but paper versions are easier and dont have to worry about dropping or damaging.
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so my question is do other shops destroy all paper drawings and work instructions older than 24 hours and only use electronic versions for all shop work ?? this includes machine operator manuals. do you throw out all the machine operator manuals and only have and or use electronic versions ??
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basically iso guy is saying every library in the world with paper books needs to be destroyed and replaced with only electronic versions assuming electronic is the latest version. my take on it is if i write with pencil todays date on it the paper hardcopy then is the latest version and electronic version is older. this assumes there is not 100 people possibly working on same version editing at the same time that never talk to one another. often there is only one or 2 people who work at one machine and they actually talk to each other every day. usually 1st person makes edits and 2nd person reads edits to see if understandable before they are submitted working as a team for electronic updating. i understand changes get approved which basically sees if 2 different edits that conflict were being done by different people but for 99.99% of jobs that dont happen. whats more likely is paper version with latest updates is not used. for example drawing is redlined with changes that never get updated on computer version. none the less the paper redlined version is still the most correct more often than electronic version version in my experience that is.

hy Tom depends on factory segment : mass production or little series

on little series, you may avoid paper, and simply use some images, etc, that will be vanished after machining

still, in such a production style, it may raise the need for saving documents, in case that some jobs will repeat in the near future

at this point is critical to have a simple storing system, that does things fast

at the end of the day, the superviser must collect and store data from each machine

problem is that if there are a lot of different parts / machine, than it may be better to simply skip this step, and consider the cnc as a terminal, thus operator takes notes, and next time same jobs appears, the superviser simply directs it to him, because he has the know-how

when machining same thing for a long time, is good to have a written version; this does not exclude having a digital version, but having a catalogue in your hands with all requirements means a lot ... also such programs are ok to be printed, and stored, just in case

we have a term here for such catalogues, that are written with specific terms and have technical ilustrations

this is production

iso standards is a different thing, and in many cases a lot of paperwork appears, and there seems to be no one in charge, but guys with papers ...

having a global perspective helps make peace between iso requirements and production needs

idea is to have all legal documents iso required, but also a simple, but absolute, production organization

problems appear when an iso, or tesa guy, simply comes at guys that work and try to imput signing documents and crazy stuff, instead of trying to make things easier ...

idea is that some persons lost in documents will insist on aspects that will demoralize workers, and will reduce overall randament

such cases are best handeld only by persons that understand legal aspects and also have practical experience ...

deadlykitten said:

hy Tom depends on factory segment : mass production or little series

on little series, you may avoid paper, and simply use some images, etc, that will be vanished after machining

still, in such a production style, it may raise the need for saving documents, in case that some jobs will repeat in the near future

at this point is critical to have a simple storing system, that does things fast

at the end of the day, the superviser must collect and store data from each machine

problem is that if there are a lot of different parts / machine, than it may be better to simply skip this step, and consider the cnc as a terminal, thus operator takes notes, and next time same jobs appears, the superviser simply directs it to him, because he has the know-how

when machining same thing for a long time, is good to have a written version; this does not exclude having a digital version, but having a catalogue in your hands with all requirements means a lot ... also such programs are ok to be printed, and stored, just in case

we have a term here for such catalogues, that are written with specific terms and have technical ilustrations

this is production

Click to expand...

my point is iso guy wanted all hardcopy info including hand written notes in hardcopy setup information to be put into electronic form and hardcopies destroyed. this is of course assuming electronic version is the most updated version but it is often not so.
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many a job person doing it realizes quickly the electronic version mistakes and may not even have access to correct or edit the electronic version. quite often a note with pencil and paper operator makes note of problem and tells next operator of the problem
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or machine operators manual showing parameters operator writes with pencil original parameter with the date in the book or manual at the machine for operating that machine, that way if needed he has record of original parameter. normally many pdf electronic versions of owners manual are not editable or software is not installed at computer operator uses
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i guess i would have a problem destroying all library books cause they might be old versions. in my experience often the paper versions of stuff at point of use often has the latest info often just written with a pencil. perhaps in the future that may change with cheap large electronic computer tablets everywhere. but even tablet computer often can edit a paper version far faster than editing something on tablet computer. some artist use a hugh tablet computer and draw with a stylus like using a pencil. none of those where i work

If an operator makes an edit to the original, writes notes, etc... all we do is scan them into a .pdf format so that the next time that job is ran, we still have the notes.

DMF_TomB said:

my point is iso guy wanted all hardcopy info including hand written notes in hardcopy setup information to be put into electronic form and hardcopies destroyed.

Click to expand...

Could quite possibly be your ISO guy is an idiot. Just because he want to see it, that doesn't mean it's an ISO requirement.

That's one of the problems with ISO 9001 and AS9100, quality morons either mis interpret shit, or just plain make shit up and propagate nonsense as the word of God.

i know, i know : tell him that you agree, butonly if he will give up using his computer for several months ...

idea is simple : dont interfere, unless you can do something simpler and faster

you should explain him the side effects of these actions, and maybe there is a way

and there is a way, because future is digital

do an experiment : for a while, no paper will be used, but also no paper documents will be dstroyed

... if most of drawings are on A4 paper, you may need tablets with at least A4 display ( opaque, not shiny )
... also a futuristic, but simple application, should allow viewing drawings and adding notes by hand writing
... each employer becames an user, with different clearance level inside the main register
... this main register, or whatever, must be developed simple and smart, and is not impossible

during implementation if this digital things, also documents must exist, thus also old style must be active ... transition must be smooth, safe, and without side effects

Mtndew said:

If an operator makes an edit to the original, writes notes, etc... all we do is scan them into a .pdf format so that the next time that job is ran, we still have the notes.

Click to expand...

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yes i have often scanned or took picture of sheet of paper and saved as pdf or powerpoint file. but iso guys says that change needs approval. electronic version is usually locked or not directly editable
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i am asked to submit changes to supervisor who approves it and replaces old electronic version. often there can be a delay of days to months depending on supervisor remembering to do it. sure if 100 people can change same document it needs someone to watch for conflicting versions edits. but normally only one or 2 guys change documents for their specific machine or work areas and those 2 people just talk to each other or agree on common paper version so any changes are on same paper version or on same electronic version.

deadlykitten said:

i know, i know : tell him that you agree, butonly if he will give up using his computer for several months ...

idea is simple : dont interfere, unless you can do something simpler and faster

you should explain him the side effects of these actions, and maybe there is a way

and there is a way, because future is digital

do an experiment : for a while, no paper will be used, but also no paper documents will be dstroyed

... if most of drawings are on A4 paper, you may need tablets with at least A4 display ( opaque, not shiny )
... also a futuristic, but simple application, should allow viewing drawings and adding notes by hand writing
... each employer becames an user, with different clearance level inside the main register
... this main register, or whatever, must be developed simple and smart, and is not impossible

during implementation if this digital things, also documents must exist, thus also old style must be active ... transition must be smooth, safe, and without side effects

Click to expand...

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even when new stuff goes all electronic it can be years til all old legacy or old files are converted to electronic form. had where 5000 setup sheets took literally over a year to scan into computer. and of course why scan 1000's of setup sheets when most will never be used again. only got them just in case needed but 99% will never be needed.
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its like i got encyclopedia in the basement do i scan over 100,000 pages so i got electronic version and might use it in the future a few pages ? same with every book in the library do you scan millions of pages and throw all the books away ??

DMF_TomB said:

.it can be years til all old legacy or old files are converted to electronic form

Click to expand...

leave the past as it is ... dont scan it

simply create an archive room

this transition should not target converting documents from the past, but making things simpler from now on, and this involves many things

when this is proved to work, thus everybody benefits and agrees that new thing is the thing, than maybe one may say : lets scan old documents

DMF_TomB said:

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yes i have often scanned or took picture of sheet of paper and saved as pdf or powerpoint file. but iso guys says that change needs approval. electronic version is usually locked or not directly editable
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i am asked to submit changes to supervisor who approves it and replaces old electronic version. often there can be a delay of days to months depending on supervisor remembering to do it. sure if 100 people can change same document it needs someone to watch for conflicting versions edits. but normally only one or 2 guys change documents for their specific machine or work areas and those 2 people just talk to each other or agree on common paper version so any changes are on same paper version or on same electronic version.

Click to expand...

yes Tom, this is true

solution is that files should not be seen as single entities, but as records, that contains : image, comment field, modification field, awaiting approval field, etc

... and this can be done

but the issue is not the digital platform, but the person that is in charge with updating all these informations, that comes from each operator

Tom, i have a lot of coments inside my programs, and i doubt that somebody else will have the patience to understand them, and i think that you know this better than anyone else

nobody will debug and organize feedback it requires qualified personel

biggest thing is all changes to any documentation like setup info or work instructions iso guy says needs to be approved (by supervisor usually) and go in a non editable network location which is checked first before any work is done.
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a cnc machinist used to creating and managing his own setup info, documentation, logs. program comments like on a hardcopy of program usually objects to loosing total and free and instant ability to edit anything as he sees the need
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i would understand if many people could be trying to edit same info at same time creating multiple versions. but more normal is only one or 2 people involved per machine and as long as they agree where and how common documents are kept and edited it usually works with no problems

if there is someone that understands what you do, he will help you by making preparations for your future setups, and also he may record that data inside a random network ( thus i dont care where he stores data, as long as he helps me )

but if the person that does the record has no clue what you do, he will come, ask you what you do ( thus you will be interviewed ), all what you will say will be on a network, and you will not be allowed to change your mind

also there will be the scenario in which you will be forced to work in a manner that was not designed by you, thus you will be a robot

... but maybe you will be in charge with preparing future setups for more machines, and you will have a secretary that will make records, based on your knowledge



by the way, what do you expect to happen ?

deadlykitten said:

if there is someone that understands what you do, he will help you by making preparations for your future setups, and also he may record that data inside a random network ( thus i dont care where he stores data, as long as he helps me )

but if the person that does the record has no clue what you do, he will come, ask you what you do ( thus you will be interviewed ), all what you will say will be on a network, and you will not be allowed to change your mind

also there will be the scenario in which you will be forced to work in a manner that was not designed by you, thus you will be a robot

... but maybe you will be in charge with preparing future setups for more machines, and you will have a secretary that will make records, based on your knowledge



by the way, what do you expect to happen ?

Click to expand...

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more than likely massive volumes of records will be created and hidden and not openly shared with bosses and management. if 2 people are only ones using a machine any records keeping interference from big brother from ability to freely instantly create and or change any documentation as they see fit to do any time they feel like it will be resisted.
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many Americans would resist big brother communist type total centralized control of everything
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for 1000's of years trades people often and normally did not share trade secrets with outsiders (including bosses) that is a new thing not keeping trade secrets

please, what means trade secret ?

as i can see, there are 2 things :

1) i thought that there is a iso / quality requirement, like having a record for all preparations; in other words, there is a requirement for a register that can be inspected, so to see how well a shop is performing

a common shop may not need it, but if you are working i dont know where, crafting things for some important clients, than maybe such a register is the iso-proof that you are eligible to work for an important client

2) trade secrets at a larger scale, etc, this always happened ... one way or another, if production has a certain profile, than almost each activity has a clearance level / classified level

but this is a normal behaviour, so to protect some things

onestly, i think that this behaviour may extend over activities that do not necessarily require classification

it may be possible to close wikipedia

it may be possible to own the rights for water

... and so on ... there are interests in lowering the average iq, and so on

what you are sayng is not impossible but is not ok .... what else can i say ?

Have you ever ran a (or a few thousands) part(s) to an outdated version of a paper print? I sure have.
This is where the ISO guy is coming from.

The standard requires that you have a method for controlling print revision and making sure old stuff is not available to the floor and is destroyed.
Putting it all in the computer is just a way of making this easier.
Otherwise when there is a change you have to get rid of the old, now bad prints somehow.
One can track who has had access and send out new with sign off sheets, this inevitably misses stuff made on the copy machine and handed out, require routings to have a sign off as to revision level in use........
The concept is to not be able to use outdated documentation which anyone who has built Rev D when Rev E is current will think is a good idea.
Implementing the idea so that it works well for all involves some thinking about notes and such.

Plenty of room in the standard to work with an all paper process.
During the time this standard was being written not everyone had a computer.

He has a point, but one has to understand how the floor works also and many in his position do not as they just have not had the exposure.
Good for him to want to make sure there is control of the latest version and information, good for you to complain that the his system does not work to get the job done right.
Bob

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=336905
19 posts to date.

Deadly Kindly: 9

The DMF Tom: 6

Is that the blind leading the blind.

Dew, Larry, Bob & Phil. : 1 each. Its like we only made par on a PGA tournament.

What's really set you off? ISO guy has pulled the pin on your personal Excel spreadsheets hasn't he? Because they are not company documents, and you off doing your own thing. In so much as a program isn't safe from editing from you?

You surely cant be complaining about the most recent version of an engineering drawing, being the only one available? Other wise your producing parts to an out dated drawing.

drawing rev level is computer controlled. i cannot access older rev levels. i cannot access drawing that is locked or being edited. if it is a fixture drawing showing a part in fixture normally that never changes. most drawing changes are hole location changes anything major gets a totally different drawing number
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program rev level is computer controlled i cannot download older programs or programs that are locked as they are being edited. programmer changes program he goes to operator program hardcopy book (log) and replaces the hardcopy with the latest program rev level. program hardcopy log is to record any program edits done by operators with name and date and reason for change. program log often shows 10 different feeds and speeds already tried as well as current settings
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twice i actually had to redo old worn turcite application that i had new drawing supplied and i had to redo job cause it was a older part that required older drawing and older program. i actually had to create a work instruction showing circled how to tell the different versions of the parts apart. i often work on old parts made over a decade ago that older machine is being rebuilt to bring it up to original factory new condition
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excel work logs and checklists inspector has no problems with. he actually said logs are a good ideal to use.
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my complaint is any document or work instruction created by the machine operator for himself iso inspector does not like hardcopies being kept more than one day. and document notes from the operator basically on the same document he created is suppose to be submitted for approval and stored on computer network read only file location. supervisor approval most times supervisor does not understand the documents. when it concerns machine operator manuals that came with the machine i do not see anything wrong with hardcopies. many a operator manual has penciled in notes explaining something or a record of a parameter in the manuals.
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some hardcopy stuff is as simple as picture of part in fixture on table at beginning of program hardcopy log book to confirm before press cycle start this is what you should see. not a work instruction but more a identifying you got correct setup or what you should see before starting program.
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many a operator keeps private personal notes on jobs. basically if he wants to share any info he is restricted from changing the document he himself created. this encourages not sharing info and going back to private personal notes on jobs. or worse operator is encouraged to not write anything down and just go by memory.