Pricing reality check - drill/tap job

Greetings,

I'd like to make sure I have not gone crazy - this is really bothering me.

Details are as follows:

Qty. 25

Mat'l - customer supplied MIC 6 - .500 x 40" x 47" (part to finish size as supplied no milling to size required)

6-32 2b tapped thru - 55 holes
10-32 2b tapped thru - 32 holes
Clearance thru c-sink for #10 - 15 holes
Clearance thru c-bore for #10 - 6 holes (c-bores - are on the perimeter and break out the side rectangular)
1/4-28 tapped thru - 15
Clearance thru for #6 - 10 holes

Grand total of 133 holes + 6 c-bores that need to be milled.

I would run this in machining center I can get this in one setup whole part with no farting around chamfer all holes front and back tapping in the machine, form tap etc. etc. quality job Q.C. etc. etc. I figure 2 min per hole as an average - that usually takes care of all the stuff on a drilling job like this and averages out tool changes, move hole-hole, handling (load - spot from back to chamfer backside, flip spot for chamfers and away-we-go finish part). Need to program/ setup etc. which I'm doing for free for the sake of this discussion.


Competition is charging - $100.00 Each

I'm over $200.00 as a rock bottom.

$100 seems insanely cheap

I agree that $100 ea. sounds a little low.
I'd think 1.25 hours per plate, with a 1 hr program, and 1.5 hours to set up the job. (ball park figures = $120 / plate)

I admit that I routinely underestimate the setup time.... I usually forget the little things like: part handling time, clearing the table of vises / 4th axis / chucks, etc.

it isn't really a question of whether someone else will do it for $100.00, the only question is are they going to make money at it. Probably not. But sometimes we have to ride the wave of it. If you want the job I would re-submit a quote at $125.00, and see what they say.

Reasoning is; guess what? There are customers who lie to you about competitors quotes to get a deal. So re-submitting an estimate just above the supposed other guy, gives them the opportunity to get the part at closer to the price they want, and lets you know their practices, for future reference.

Or just no-quote and tell them to stick it.

FWIW, 133 holes Drilled and Tapped would be about 15 minutes Machine time, at 2 seconds Drill and 5 seconds to Tap. (not counting the C-sinks. rapids or toolchange)

I think, off the top of my head, with csinks with tool changes with a fast machine you are into 20 minutes per. I drill and tap 10s of thousands of #6 but my average part fits in a vise and has maybe 12 holes and drilled tapped and csinked takes maybe 2 minutes

but that is a vise part, very little loss in part change, this part is bigger than my machine, which means you should not be bargain basement on such a large part as that wont fit on a 'normal' 20x40 machine.

So, big part with long change over, probably long setup. Probably a lot of handling, you cannot just pick it up and burr it on the drill press.


I see 100 as closer than 200, but I am NOT running your machines, and this will NOT fit on my machine.

I think I could get the face work done and the part changes in half an hour, part to part. With several hours of setup. And CAM work. And back burring. And post handling. On a big machine that is probably slow[anybody have a 40x48 that runs 2000 ipm?]

I don't like buyers telling me what stuff costs

Maybe he is doing you a favor.....maybe not.

Oh, and cut taps for mic 6 will slow you down.

I'd probably leave room to buy one.....

i don't think you are crazy

but you are prooooobably a bit high..........

maybe............

doug925 said:

I agree that $100 ea. sounds a little low.
I'd think 1.25 hours per plate, with a 1 hr program, and 1.5 hours to set up the job. (ball park figures = $120 / plate)

I admit that I routinely underestimate the setup time.... I usually forget the little things like: part handling time, clearing the table of vises / 4th axis / chucks, etc.

Click to expand...

I agree .. Initially, I was at 120.00 ea also.. but I would put an extra 60.00 ea for the 6-32 thru.

I Shirley wouldn't put it back in the machine to back chamfer!
A rechargable drill and a 3/8 multi-flute chamfer tool will make short work of all of that by hand!

I'm with the buck-n-a-quarter crowd....


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Many years ago I was asked to quote on re tapping some aluminum discs on our VMC. I added in programming time, setting up and removing a chuck on the machine and used a rate of $50 or $75/ hour. So the price I quoted was $10.00 per disc. Never got the job. Later I was told that their estimator figured it should be priced out at $5.00 per disc.

And guess where the estimator came from?

His own shop which went broke earlier that year.

So if a price seems too good to be true, it just might be.

That would be fine except for the thru threaded holes - its only 5 min to run backside spots before flipping over and running complete with no hand work later.

If the tool is sharp - the threaded holes will be fine.

How are you going to line it up by flipping it that well?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

How much will it cost you if you snap off a 6-32 tap and ruin a 4' x 4' piece of 1/2" MIC-6?

Regards.

Mikew

Is another vendor figuring on double stacking the sheets ?

Ha.... FineGrain beat me to the #1 question!

Thanks for the input -

I programmed this up: (as some of you correctly pointed out machining drilling tapping only is approx. 15 min w/0 tool changes moves etc.)

80 x 40 x 30 machine (600 ipm rapids)

actual 30 min run + program & setup 3 hours

+ handling approx. 5 min per part (2 man job these are 4x4 sheets) clamping etc.

+ Q.C. (first piece 100% - with first article report) -this prob. should run in CMM B&S PCDMIS so program for that.

I'm down to 180 ish.

Risk was in my 200 price - 6-32 only ever broken 1 or 2 form taps ever when the holes were 2 small but anything could happen

Hmmm. Handling a plate that size would be rather tricky as well, especially if you need to avoid scratches, etc.. I'm not sure how you would fixture the part (I would imagine stops on a plate and mill clamps), but you can bet on at least 10 minutes changing out each part, surely.

If you buy carbide drills you can run surprisingly fast. Even HSS can be pushed pretty fast. If your machine can do it, I would estimate 20 seconds per tapped hole, including drill + tap + rapid moves to get there... countersinks would be quicker, counterbores slower...

I guess a lot of this depends on what type of machine. We have a gantry mill, which comes with its own challenges. Can't get the spindle down to the table so a fixture would be required. There's an expense that has to be accounted for, unless you can fully expect it to or confirm it will repeat.

Honestly I would estimate 1.5 hours per part, which for our shop would equate to around $90. This does not include setup time and programming, and cost of fixturing...

Fixturing is something some folks don't account for. I get it if it's huge volume where you can add cents per part to make it up, or repeats year in year out...

We have material in stock from other jobs we can use for this purpose. Three dowel pins for XY locators, tapped holes for mill clamps.

I'd estimate about a day's time to program and make the fixture. Then 2 hrs to program the part and 2 hrs to set it up.

I come to a conclusion of roughly $120 apiece. Wow, right in line with everyone else!

One thing I would stress though is deburring outside the machine... it would take some care, as it wouldn't take anything to scratch a big ground aluminum plate, but, a guy with a hand drill can make quick work of some holes - WHILE another part is running.

The final aspect is PITA factor. The logistics of moving such large pieces of stock would be a bit of a challenge, especially if keeping them blemish free is important. At the end of the quote, look at the parts and think, "does that look like a $120 part... or a $150 part... or..." I think there is enough safety on my estimate of 1.5 hour cycle time to allow for some wiggle room, so $120 is a safe but not outlandish quote.

Finegrain said:

How much will it cost you if you snap off a 6-32 tap and ruin a 4' x 4' piece of 1/2" MIC-6?

Regards.

Mikew

Click to expand...

Jeez!! What if monkeys fly out of your ass? What if you get a half inch Drill stuck in the Monitor of your control?

litlerob1 said:

Jeez!! What if monkeys fly out of your ass? What if you get a half inch Drill stuck in the Monitor of your control?

Click to expand...

Are you mad?! Do not invoke the wrath of DMF_TomB, you fool!

jpf44 said:

I'm down to 180 ish.

Click to expand...

Not suggesting a change, $100.00 hr. is good (we do that on most stuff). But keep in mind, it's borderline high end. $120.00 is pretty high, but $60.00 is not strange. And some are even lower than that, eating Top Ramen for dinner everyday, but choosing to do it like that. No idea what the Economy is like there, but you're only 100 Miles from NYC, so??

R

Also remember that there are some jobs you have to love your competitors to take.
Plugs up their machine time at lower than normal rates and cripples their ability to deliver fast.
You should never get 90-100% of what you quote (that's crazy land) but agree that you should question and look hard at those you loose and how or why somebody took it.
Maybe they have a trick pony and certainly look to see if you missed this ride but maybe not a good idea to chase the bottom.
Bob

litlerob1 said:

What if you get a half inch Drill stuck in the Monitor of your control?

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, made my morning coffee go down the wrong pipe