problem with a Sauter Turret on an EMCO 320 lathe with Sinumerik 810t GA1 control

Hello,

I'm having a problem with a Sauter turret on an Emco 320 lathe. I saw this machine running with the tool turret working in it's previous home, but it needed to be re-commissioned as it had lost some of it's parameters. I've followed the recommissioning procedure and reloaded the PLC as described by Siemens, but I'm still getting errors:

6025 Tool-turret index failure
6024 Tool turret encoder fault. (this happens as soon as the turret is jogged or moved.

The tool turret is not locking, when I press the rotation button, it just spins without indexing. I believe this is because the parameters in the %TEA1 file are not correct for the machine. In the digital %TEA1 file, it says:

<lines omitted>
N2400 =40403
N2401 =175363
<lines omitted>

But next to this someone has hand written notes that says"NEVER change turret home pos. Jog Diagnosis > NC machine data Axial Data 10/1/09 2400 = 38818 2401 =172730 so, despite it saying "NEVER" change it, someone did in 2009??? (apparently the machine was recommissioned then as well) it's apparent that someone rotated the encoder on the turret as well, as evidenced by the attached picture. I'm not sure why this was necessary. How do I ensure that the values in the parameters match the physical orientation of the encoder?

Took off the cover of the turret, and It's interesting that there is a new witness mark for what appears to be the encoder… someone has had issues before and been in there? I DID see this thing work properly at the seller’s, so I suspect a software problem not a hardware problem.

does anyone have experience with these Sauter Turrets, or know more about the %PLC files and %TEA files that might be able to explain what I should try next? I believe the problem is not a hardware problem, but that I don't have the right parameters in the file and the control isn't able to "talk" to the turret. I do have what I expect are the original parameters in both paper tape format and digital, but I need help from someone who knows more about this than I.


View attachment PCA.txtView attachment PCP2.txtView attachment SPF2.txtView attachment TEA1.txt

Here's two files that wouldn't fit in the original post:

any assistance is greatly appreciated!

View attachment TEA2.txt

I have a sauter on one of my hardinge lathes. It's been a solid unit. It sounds to me like the encoder died..I've had issues where the turret wouldn't lock but that ended up being a live tool clutch fault. The free spinning turret seems to be a general symptom of multiple problems.

On my hardinge there is a turret setup mode that allows detailed control over the various sensors and switches that are involved in the function of the turret. Certain buttons on the control panel take on other functions that allow you to lock unlock and index the turret.

I wish I could help more.

XD341 said:

I have a sauter on one of my hardinge lathes. It's been a solid unit. It sounds to me like the encoder died..I've had issues where the turret wouldn't lock but that ended up being a live tool clutch fault. The free spinning turret seems to be a general symptom of multiple problems.

On my hardinge there is a turret setup mode that allows detailed control over the various sensors and switches that are involved in the function of the turret. Certain buttons on the control panel take on other functions that allow you to lock unlock and index the turret.

I wish I could help more.

Click to expand...

Actually, I think it is pretty unlikely that the encoder has died. I purchased this machine about 2 months ago, and saw the turret index working with no problems at the sellers place. The machine had lost some of it's parameters though and would not operate correctly. the problem with the tool turret seems to have happened when I cleared all the parameters, as it was working fine at the sellers. As I was troubleshooting it, I did blow one of the contactors that controlled reverse rotation, but having replaced that, it still is not indexing correctly.

On this control, I have not seen a turret indexing mode of any kind. Any other ideas?

I have a 840c and 840d so I don't know how much in common the 810t takes but, Is the tea2 file coming off a remote pc being loaded into the control or does the 810t have internal storage?

craqus said:

Actually, I think it is pretty unlikely that the encoder has died. I purchased this machine about 2 months ago, and saw the turret index working with no problems at the sellers place. The machine had lost some of it's parameters though and would not operate correctly. the problem with the tool turret seems to have happened when I cleared all the parameters, as it was working fine at the sellers. As I was troubleshooting it, I did blow one of the contactors that controlled reverse rotation, but having replaced that, it still is not indexing correctly.

On this control, I have not seen a turret indexing mode of any kind. Any other ideas?

Click to expand...

Yeah mine is a Fanuc so I'm sure its different. The turret setup mode isn't obvious, it's an archaic combination of button pushes that get's you there.

pcasanova said:

I have a 840c and 840d so I don't know how much in common the 810t takes but, Is the tea2 file coming off a remote pc being loaded into the control or does the 810t have internal storage?

Click to expand...

I believe those controls are fairly similar. with the process of re-commissioning the TEA2 file (and others) are loaded into the control from a windows 2000 PC that is running a data transfer program called PCIN. once loaded into memory, the computer is disconnected and the control holds those files in memory... unless it's battery fails, and it loses the parameters (which is apparently what happened to mine)

I have read a ton of old documentation on the Sinumerik control, but haven't seen tool turret setup mentioned anywhere... not even in passing.

The biggest clue that I have on this is the notes someone took on the printout of the TEA files. I'm certain that those notes were made when this machine previously lost it parameters. I'm tempted to change the values to the handwritten notes, but also skeptical that's a good idea because it says NEVER change those values... though it looks like someone did!

I'm still stuck on this one.

yea siemens will have nothing on a turret. I would try the people you bought it from had another tea2 file back ups from different periods of time, so you can compare and see whats different and your didn't get corrupted somehow. Or contact Steve at emco and see if he can get you a file. have you checked the prox switches? working or adjusted?

pcasanova said:

yea siemens will have nothing on a turret. I would try the people you bought it from had another tea2 file back ups from different periods of time, so you can compare and see whats different and your didn't get corrupted somehow. Or contact Steve at emco and see if he can get you a file. have you checked the prox switches? working or adjusted?

Click to expand...

What I have from the seller is earlier in this thread... it looks like the values were adjusted at some point, but it also says they should "never" be changed, so I'm hesitant to change them from what's in the TEA file. What I'd really like to know is if the values N2400 =40403 and N2401 =175363 are position descriptions on the encoder for where to make it reverse rotation and lock. It seems to reason that would be the case, but if so, how does one determine these values? Since this apparently has been done before, there must be some way to set those values so it matches the position of the encoder.

I've found some very vague instructions on rotating the encoder here:
That sounds reasonable, but I don't know how to find the diagnostic bit in my control to see the "strobe pulse." additionally, I can't get my turret to lock in place so I'm not sure if this is the answer.

To your question about the proximity switches, do you mean the proximity switches on the spindle? Since I saw the spindle and the turret work when I both this lathe, I have to assume they are working and adjusted properly.

Success! I think I have solved this problem. But first of all, let me say I couldn’t have done it with out the input from people on this board, and others. For the benefit of anyone else who comes across this thread or problem in the future, I'll outline the solution.

The part that through me astray is that there is an error in the "810 / 820 Service Course How to reload your NC?" document that is put out by Siemens! If you follow the steps exactly, it has you clear your NC and PLC, load %TEA1 and %TEA2 and then restart. But the next step is where it throws you off: after rebooting the manual has you RE-CLEAR you PLC and NC and then load the %PCP file… but if you do this it does not work… at least on my machine.

The proper procedure on my machine is to start up into INITIAL CLEAR mode and first clear everything out (PLC initial, NC data, etc.) but don't load default values. After this, you need to restart the control. Once restarted you need to get back into INITIAL CLEAR MODE and load %TEA1 and %TEA2. Once those are reloaded, you need to again restart into INITIAL CLEAR mode, and only then can you load the %PCP file completely. The machine must have TEA1 and TEA2 in order to fully load the %PCP file. My control was not fully loading the second section of the PCP file, and apparently this is where all the data for the tool turret indexing resides! After loading the PCP file, you can format the alarm memory and load the PCA file (alarm file) and any other files you have.

Phew!!! Once I finally figured that out, my tool turret indexes no problem, and I'm able to jog the axis without holding down the AUX ON button. Even better, I went into the overstore section and manually put in some spindle values (S) and spindle rotation direction (M 03) and the spindle is now working!!! Additionally, I'm not getting the low pressure central lubrication error with the pressure switch bypassed, I need to hook it back up, but perhaps I've solved that error too.

So I still don’t have everything figured out yet because I can't get the collet closer to manually open or close, and the parts drawer doesn’t operate from the button either, but dang I am getting closer and closer to cutting parts.

Again, thank to everyone who has been helping me through this, especially "nulizhang" on the Siemens Forum who helped me put 2 and 2 together mentally!

Unless your Parameters are 100% from your machine you will need to go in and change a few that are machine specific.
On mine after commissioning I need to change the draw bar lock/unlock, Tailstock, max rpm as I have the high speed version, the canned cycles need to be unlocked and the list goes on...I have done years ago and is a royal pain...I had tech do it last time.

SIM said:

Unless your Parameters are 100% from your machine you will need to go in and change a few that are machine specific.
On mine after commissioning I need to change the draw bar lock/unlock, Tailstock, max rpm as I have the high speed version, the canned cycles need to be unlocked and the list goes on...I have done years ago and is a royal pain...I had tech do it last time.

Click to expand...

Had the documentation been a little better, this would have been much easier! I don't have the luxury of a tech who can do this for me, but hopefully I can stumble through it. I have not yet loaded the canned cycles, but I think I know how to do it. With a little messing around, I've learned that I can actuate the tailstock and the parts catcher with M codes... so that's looking good. (the parts tray physical button does not work yet though) I can't seem to get the collet to work from the button or the M codes yet. Not sure what the problem is there, but I haven't had much time to troubleshoot it. the collet was not working at the sellers, but we swapped the lines with the tailstock and got it to actuate, so I know it's good mechanically, just need to figure out why it's not getting signal from the PLC or the button. There is an EMCO-specific memory location (500080 or something, I'm not in front of it) where you have to set some binary code to select if you're using a collet chuck or a manual chuck, but that's not it, I have those set right.

glad you got it figured out. and yea the instructions they give are more of a guideline than instructions.
you are going to have to go and I think it's in the mda and set the chuck to id/od clamping whatever your using.
And I would also check you x position is correct for drilling on center. If the tea1(MD) file had a ref switch distance was changed and not on the backup you loaded you won't be on center.

I did what the tech did to retrieve parameters for machine...I called Emco.

Tech knew which to ask for and got most of them at one time...didn't hurt that he had a direct line either.
I'd stumble and realize it was a bad parameter, call Emco then wait for a callback, install parameter then move on till I found another issue...call back...it was a process for sure.

pcasanova said:

glad you got it figured out. and yea the instructions they give are more of a guideline than instructions.
you are going to have to go and I think it's in the mda and set the chuck to id/od clamping whatever your using.
And I would also check you x position is correct for drilling on center. If the tea1(MD) file had a ref switch distance was changed and not on the backup you loaded you won't be on center.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm.. I'm not clear on what you mean by going into the mda to set ID/OD clamping. I DID go into the settings and change SD-Byte 5008 to 0001110, which is the setting for a collet chuck (as opposed to a manual chuck). is this what you mean, or are you talking about something else? In the OVERSTORE I am able to manually execute M codes, that is working. On my machine, M25 and M26 are supposed to open/close the clamping device, but when I input those nothing happens.

try mda/mdi not sure what machine would call it and enter

H1 M99
or
H2 M99

then hit cycle start

h1 is for od clamping
h2 id

that should get your m25,m26 working again

pcasanova said:

try mda/mdi not sure what machine would call it and enter

H1 M99
or
H2 M99

then hit cycle start

h1 is for od clamping
h2 id

that should get your m25,m26 working again

Click to expand...

Holy smokes!!! that worked perfectly! I actually did it in the OVERSTORE mode, but now the command works both with M-codes AND also the button for the collet closer works too!!!! So I'm suspecting that there must be a similar HXX MXX sequence for the parts tray as well, to get that button working, do you happen to know what that code is? The parts tray catcher is M24 to open and M23 to close it.

again MANY THANKS!!!!

first check your air. or i was told it could be a 3000 parameter and they should be listed in on the back of the control cover.

The air is good. the parts drawer works fine when I use the M codes to cycle it manually in the OVERSTORE, so I know it's not a physical problem with the mechanical elements of the unit (pneumatics, relays, etc). I suspect it's a parameter issue, but I can find no mention of any parameters for the parts drawer. there is nothing listed on the back of the control cover. (though that would be a helpful place!)

there's some handwritten notes in the TEA1 and TEA2 sections, but for the 3000 levels it says only "axial machine data"-- it does not describe each register in the 3000 range.

I'm a beginner, so I thought there might be a similar sequence to enable the button for the parts drawer as there was for the collet closer. This button was working before I re-commissioned the machine, and note that there is ONE button that both opens and closes the parts drawer... its not one button to open and a different button to close. Somehow the button is not enabled, but I just don't know how to turn it on.