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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    Cameraman, I am an Australian, I moved my company here 6 years ago. Vietnam has come a long way in 15 years while many other countries have been moving more backward that forward. Vietnam treats it's manufacturers as a truly important and necessary part of it's economy and does everything it can to support us. A massive improvement over where I came from. Our machine foundation is substantial, the manufacturer is bound by our contract to have ascertained the suitability of the foundation prior to signing the contract. I have the first of this type of machine to be sold into Vietnam, I managed to get clauses added that leave me very well protected. They can't walk away, unless they hand back all of my cash and they are prepared to sacrifice the machine's reputation in Vietnam, the fastest growing market in Asia. The extra anchors were added ensure that the machine has each pad loaded, or else the anchors would pull the machine out of shape and it would fail the factory tests. Prior to adding the extra anchors, they tried increasing the load on various pads to stop the twisting,the problem is that by the time they have made enough change to reduce the twisting, the entire machine is all out of spec. I suggested to them that the machine was perhaps aligned in the factory with incorrect loading on the pads, and that when the machine is now correctly loaded that it is then out of alignment, and thus, when it is in alignment it is incorrectly loaded, and that there is no happy medium. You can imagine that my suggestion did not go down that well with the engineers at Japan HQ, so we agreed to a second attempt at the installation with added anchors and we are back to the start. I think that we are about to see a fairly in depth investigation, I just hope it doesn't take too long.
    I get where you are coming from.. lol not lol as that's a pain in the arse. A lot at stake / nerve wracking and you want to get it right fist time.

    If it IS Mazak by any chance rather than for example Nakamura, maybe fly out to the factory to see where they do the inspections/test sheets. Their foundation/ build space should be very sound.

    I think in the case of MAZAK they do a really thorough job of their test sheets and there should be sample plots from other customer machines in use too (unless it's completely unique).

    The Nakamura machines are newer/ B axis etc.

    But for DMG mori, MAZAK and OKUMA (non-Genos) machines their test sheets are extensive and sound and they all know what they are doing.

    Barring sabotage if who ever it is really DO need to solve this problem so they can further sell into Vietnam.

    I guess what I'm trying to say that the build area and facilities at least for MAZAK, DMG MORI and OKUMA should be pretty damn sound!

    But something could be messed up in the whole getting a new machine brand/type of machine established in Vietnam?

    Good luck, sounds like you will get what you need and persevere well and be successful with it no matter what.

    Cheers,

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Having actually adopted a child/infant from Vietnam (15 years ago ) the one thing that I learnt very quickly as a Anglo/European American is that nothing and mean nothing happens without "Appropriate" bribes to local government officials.

    so:


    1. We have not established whether "Alphington" is or is not a government official (in spite of having sound/ reasonably sound engineering knowledge).

    2. Bear in mind Vietnam IS and mean really IS a communist county, but has the capability to achieve great and wonderful things but the achievements of Ho Chi Minh are sung by school children every day at school etc.

    Ho Chi Minh - Wikipedia


    So with phrases like,

    "Any manufacturer can have a problem, we are about to find out how this one performs when it has one. Fingers crossed I have chosen the right manufacturer. ".

    "I meant to say simple turning operations. My point is, that if the turret cannot be used simultaneously with the milling head working on the other spindle then the machine fails in it's intended purpose"



    "I submit that one cannot expect to perform high precision turning in one spindle while rough milling simultaneously on the other... "

    "the turret is NOT sold as a second opps function. The turret is sold to provide the ability to perform "simultaneous machining on both spindles." and, "to provide efficient machining of simpler parts". Read the manufacturers marketing info, I have, for every brand of machine in this class. The tool change time on the turret is 30 times faster than the milling head. A machine fitted with a turret blows the doors of a machine that is milling head only. "

    "The machine manufacturer inspected our foundation drawings before we ordered the machine and it is written into our contract that they agree that the foundation is suitable. "

    ^^^that one is quite "Fishy" from a number of different angles.

    "
    I took samples of the concrete during laying and had them laboratory tested before we ordered the machine. "

    ^^^ Even more spurious and " Fishy "... "Laboratory tested"... I'd like to see those lol.

    "The machine supplier look measurements between the machine and the outer edge of the foundation using micron dial indicators during dynamic testing of the machine. "

    ^^^Even more bizarre but interesting.

    "The machine supplier makes no claim that the foundation is insufficient in any way. "

    " On Friday just passed we formally informed the machine manufacturer that we are rejecting the machine and have requested it's removal from our factory"...

    "Fingers crossed I have chosen the right manufacturer."

    ...

    OK Looks like the machine may be deliberately sabotaged so that OP (possibly) or OP's associates can score a bribe to "Fix" the problem.

    Turns of phrase like " I submit..." , "fails in it's intended purpose...", "provide the ability to perform "... "Claim" ... "that the foundation is insufficient in any way"

    ^^^ These are all legal turns of phrase and very specific language that also pertain to intellectual property / prosecution of IP.

    "
    Any manufacturer can have a problem[/U], we are about to find out how this one performs when it has one. Fingers crossed I have chosen the right manufacturer. ".

    ^^^ This, you'll have to forgive me but it really sounds like in Vietnamese business terms "code for"... I hope these machine tool builders understand that Vietnam largely runs on birbes and correct bribes of directors of companies and government officals and other organizations, and unless they get "with" the Birbes... The machine will be sent back as per contract as there seems to be a mysterious "Unexplained" problem with the machine that could be "Fixed" with the right mechanisms of bribery to make things happen. "Finger's crossed" I hope (for their sake) they know how to play ball in Vietnam, otherwise we have found the wrong company to work with.

    Forgive me if I am 100% wrong on this but (from my experience) this is how it sounds.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________


    But on the other hand you say you are are Australian so you must be 100% legit :-) I'm just razzing you a bit as Vietnam is very difficult unless you "play the game"

    Cheers...

    Man what have you been smoking???

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    ......I took samples of the concrete during laying and had them laboratory tested before we ordered the machine. "

    ^^^ Even more spurious and " Fishy "... "Laboratory tested"... I'd like to see those lol.
    Nothing fishy about that at all. Every engineered machine foundation I have dealt with had test cylinders poured at the same time as the foundation. At 15 days one sample is destructively tested for compressive strength. At 30 days another sample is tested. The samples have to show test results within the strength tolerances of the concrete design specification. Additionally the engineer collecting the specimens does a slump test prior to the pour to verify the water percentage in the mix. If the slump test shows excessive water the mix is rejected.

    Not all foundations get engineered for sure. The last one I organized, the engineering and inspection cost was a bit over $4k. Many companies are not willing or able to spend that money so it goes undone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    Man what have you been smoking???
    Don't worry took too much Ritalin and now I'm on my third Scotch to come down... So you haven't stated what province you are working out of and how machines physically get from Japan to the various channels through Vietnam (imports) and to your shop floor.

    Everything you have said from a technical point of view points to twisted frame but a lot can happen to machine from being shipped to your floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Nothing fishy about that at all. Every engineered machine foundation I have dealt with had test cylinders poured at the same time as the foundation. At 15 days one sample is destructively tested for compressive strength. At 30 days another sample is tested. The samples have to show test results within the strength tolerances of the concrete design specification. Additionally the engineer collecting the specimens does a slump test prior to the pour to verify the water percentage in the mix. If the slump test shows excessive water the mix is rejected.

    Not all foundations get engineered for sure. The last one I organized, the engineering and inspection cost was a bit over $4k. Many companies are not willing or able to spend that money so it goes undone.
    Not fishy in the USA.

    In Vietnam and also China a lot of buildings collapse and fail routinely due to earthquake + contractor skimping on concrete and correct materials. (sadly a lot of municipal buldings are built that way and lot of people die including school children)...

    In China for example a lot of university papers steal Western papers and republish them as original work or actually just forge results... Even in non profit universities corruption is rife.

    So yeah I am kinda cynical and "Down" on how communist countries actually conduct business.

    In the USA and developed world we take the "rule of Law" for granted. I can tell you tell you first hand that "law" or "law of the land" is pretty meaningless in both China and Vietnam. Common man does not have any representation at all. The whole system is completely corrupt and runs on a system of bribes.

    The point being, The Japanese company did not witness the pouring of the foundation nor can we speak to the validity of the test labs that carried out the concrete tests. I'm just saying legally signing off on "intended" drawings is not the same as what is in the ground YKWIM..? And very difficult for a Japenese MTB to verify that unless they take sonographic equipment, ground penetrating radar and take core samples themselves... Of course they are not going to do that.

    There's a gap there and is highly dependent on trust...

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    @Alphington

    "On Friday just passed we formally informed the machine manufacturer... "

    Seriously what Australian would use that construction?

    The correct phrase or construction would be "last Friday"... You may be an Australian citizen but English is not your first language... And I can tell you the legal terms you use would rarely ever be used by a machinist or Engineer... "Submit" "Claim" etc.

    So "Buddy" how about you tell us a little bit more about yourself and flesh out some details as a human being etc. ? To gain a smidge of Trust.

    Cuz it's a little weird as we get a get a lot of BS posts here from first time new posters... And There are a lot of really sound people here but don't want to be "used" as an instrument to gain leverage over a Japanese MTB YKWIM?

    BTW Littlerob is awesome... I had no idea he ran that many different B axis mill turn machines... @Alphington one good thing about this thread is to learn what Littlerob has done... He has a ton of experience and given the chance one should be a smidge more cynical as to what the brochure might indicate versus what is your responsibility to determine as cold hard fact. You should understand that brochures are extremely cursory in nature and to pick the brains of someone of his caliber would be time well spent. Maybe one day he will even smack some sense into me (lol).

    @Alphington did you get any test parts cut on the machine you purchased, before purchased the machine to verify that the machine is capable of the parts processes and tolerances that you genuinely require?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Sounds like you did an excellent job of pre-purchase due diligence, well done for that. That's quite the adventure, going from Oz to Vietnam, at least to this sheltered North American. If you have a moment, an "OT" posting of your experiences in the country and working with the government and employees would be welcome, I'm sure it would open a lot of eyes here.
    It was more difficult than I expected, not from a technical or commercial point of view, but from personal displacement perspective it took it's toll for a while. Vietnam doesn't have oil or coal or minerals to sell, it relies on it's manufacturers and backs them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    It was more difficult than I expected, not from a technical or commercial point of view, but from personal displacement perspective it took it's toll for a while. Vietnam doesn't have oil or coal or minerals to sell, it relies on it's manufacturers and backs them up.
    I call BS on this...

    The MOST significant challenges are technical AND commercial in Vietnam.

    Honestly it IS one of the most promising SE Asian developing countries, worth investing in... Singapore would be my pick.

    Geology of Vietnam - Wikipedia

    Soooo yeah if you drive around just few miles out of Hanoi you will see a lot of water buffalo and rice paddies etc, and archaic markets and completely chaotic traffic systems etc.. BUT they do in fact have their fingers in Oil and gas (off shore), and Bauxite (ore for Aluminum) phosphate and coal. And other major minerals... ONLY a communist party official would make the counter American argument that "We" are so less fortunate for not having all these abundant natural resources like coal and gas and (whatever) like you American etc.

    So fifth massive RED flag (no pun intended) Is that Alphington is a victim...

    "Personal displacement"... You know buddy I have moved to three different countries because of REAL opportunity... I don't regret that for one minute, one second, one nanano second... IF you saw an opportunity to move to a different county for financial gain or other opportunities YOU have to take responsibility for that... In a GOOD way not some BS victim based ... Ohhhh "But from a personal displacement perspective it took it's it's toll for a while"... That's BS. You are in Vietnam for a reason.

    Alphington writes : "it relies on it's manufacturers and backs them up... " That might be partially true BUT it comes across as poor Alphington is making amazing sacrifices as he is a manufacturer saving the Vietnamese as they have no oil and gas like those fat and fortunate Americans for having all these natural resources, as other wise communist Vietnam would be just as productive as the good old US of A.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

    Let's talk about RED flags shall we?

    Honestly cluster B personality disorders especially related to malignant narcissism and sociopathy. Sooooo you seek to use PM forum to gain leverage over Japanese MTB trying to operate in Vietnam?


    Then you refuse to delineate what province in Vietnam you are really in...

    You argue from the "Brochure" as if it's metrological "fact" ...

    And then you make out simultaneously that you are both "Victim" and "Savior"... That's a couple of serious red flags right there...


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

    Soooo why I am spilling so MUCH ink over this thread... And I tell you my friends (and colleagues) there is a KEY manipulation at the heart of this...


    Never is there a case where the wheels start spinning in my head and there is not a "Key" manipulation at it's core 100%.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________

    One things about me is that folks that really know me (for many years) is they say "Eric" is never wrong... And it's not that I have the desire to be right like some kind of "Dick head" but rather I care more about "Getting it right"... In other words I don't mind being wrong to get to the truth. BUT every spidey sense in my being is saying that this thread and other attempts at staring this topic is a PURE manipulation. 100% . And folks that have known me a long time with real "Horse" sense always say "Eric is always right" after discovering some weird and twisted truth after the fact. BS detectors, manipulation alarms etc. There is a BIG piece missing here that OP is not telling you about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    One things about me is that folks that really know me (for many years) is they say "Eric" is never wrong... And it's not that I have the desire to be right like some kind of "Dick head" but rather I care more about "Getting it right"... In other words I don't mind being wrong to get to the truth. BUT every spidey sense in my being is saying that this thread and other attempts at staring this topic is a PURE manipulation. 100% . And folks that have known me a long time with real "Horse" sense always say "Eric is always right" after discovering some weird and twisted truth after the fact. BS detectors, manipulation alarms etc. There is a BIG piece missing here that OP is not telling you about.
    All I got from that was that you seem to self identify as some sort of idiot savant.

    Maybe your friends understand you better, but I don't know you from adam, so forgive me if I opt to ignore your sixth sense and give op the benefit of the doubt. After all, he came here with a straightforward, on-topic query, and did not bring any of this stuff up himself from what I can see.

    I'm not going to read through all of your posts ITT to see what it was that actually triggered you, but I'm pretty sure nobody here asked for any of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Don't worry took too much Ritalin and now I'm on my third Scotch to come down... So you haven't stated what province you are working out of and how machines physically get from Japan to the various channels through Vietnam (imports) and to your shop floor.

    Everything you have said from a technical point of view points to twisted frame but a lot can happen to machine from being shipped to your floor.
    Responsibility for what you believe lies with you, not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @Alphington

    "On Friday just passed we formally informed the machine manufacturer... "

    Seriously what Australian would use that construction?

    The correct phrase or construction would be "last Friday"... You may be an Australian citizen but English is not your first language... And I can tell you the legal terms you use would rarely ever be used by a machinist or Engineer... "Submit" "Claim" etc.

    So "Buddy" how about you tell us a little bit more about yourself and flesh out some details as a human being etc. ? To gain a smidge of Trust.

    Cuz it's a little weird as we get a get a lot of BS posts here from first time new posters... And There are a lot of really sound people here but don't want to be "used" as an instrument to gain leverage over a Japanese MTB YKWIM?

    BTW Littlerob is awesome... I had no idea he ran that many different B axis mill turn machines... @Alphington one good thing about this thread is to learn what Littlerob has done... He has a ton of experience and given the chance one should be a smidge more cynical as to what the brochure might indicate versus what is your responsibility to determine as cold hard fact. You should understand that brochures are extremely cursory in nature and to pick the brains of someone of his caliber would be time well spent. Maybe one day he will even smack some sense into me (lol).

    @Alphington did you get any test parts cut on the machine you purchased, before purchased the machine to verify that the machine is capable of the parts processes and tolerances that you genuinely require?
    I think that what confuses you the most is that I have not named the manufacturer of my machine because I don't wish to cause any ill feeling between the manufacturer and myself, or indeed between any body else here and myself. This would be a courtesy that your posts suggest completely escapes your understanding. If my desire was to discredit the manufacture, or indeed to manipulate them in some way, I would be firing their name around all over the place, but clearly I have not done so. Your attacks upon me are unwarranted, and I doubt very much that they are earning you any respect from your peers here.

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    I usually read cameraman's posts with great interest, but those in this thread are uncharacteristically hostile. Maybe it's an Australia thing - he's defending his territory from a perceived threat? I hope Mark Webber doesn't post here...

    Anyway, the geometric fault you described almost seems like a "step change" rather than a twist leading to a taper error. As if something is loose or being deformed when certain actions take place, leading to the change in diameter. I'm quite satisfied that there is something wrong, if your description of the multiple attempts of the installation team to meet specifications and failing is correct.

    Seriously, I'd welcome (when things are settled) hearing more about Vietnam from your perspective. I'm old enough to remember the American involvement there (was just young enough to not be at risk of being drafted), and have kept track of the re-engagement with Vietnam over the last few decades. Aided, not doubt, by the efforts of China to establish dominance on the region. Enemy of my enemy and all that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Seriously, I'd welcome (when things are settled) hearing more about Vietnam from your perspective. I'm old enough to remember the American involvement there (was just young enough to not be at risk of being drafted), and have kept track of the re-engagement with Vietnam over the last few decades. Aided, not doubt, by the efforts of China to establish dominance on the region. Enemy of my enemy and all that...
    So we are about the same age, I am 56.

    I started coming to Vietnam in 2007 and flew here from Melbourne 37 times between 2007 and 2011 before deciding to pack up everything and move here. I have been here 6 years and my life has never been better. My wife is Vietnamese and I now have two young daughters.

    Unfortunately the history between Vietnam and the west, and the teaching that we have had historically in the west regarding communism and peoples rights, makes intelligent discussion on an open forum like this impossible, because we will be drowned out by people that have a lot of preconceived opinions that are deeply set. The ideas that I grew up with about Vietnam, it's history, it's relationships with other communist countries, and the happiness of it's people was just wrong, and mostly fabricated by politicians. It is also completely wrong to put all communist countries in one bucket, they are just as diverse in their thinking and operation as democratic countries are, and there is just as much bickering between them as democratic countries have. If you are wondering how successful Vietnam's growth into the manufacturing world is coming along let me say this. If I place an add for workers and I only offer the minimum wage I won't get a single call, and that is pretty amazing considering that there is no welfare system for the unemployed. Everybody already has a job, if I want workers I have to offer more and get them to move from the job that they already have. When I drive into our industrial park in the morning I don't see signs for factories for rent, I see a river of motor scooters pouring down the road and into each factory. If you would like to discuss how to do business here in Vietnam, it is best done off the forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    I think that what confuses you the most is that I have not named the manufacturer of my machine because I don't wish to cause any ill feeling between the manufacturer and myself, or indeed between any body else here and myself. This would be a courtesy that your posts suggest completely escapes your understanding. If my desire was to discredit the manufacture, or indeed to manipulate them in some way, I would be firing their name around all over the place, but clearly I have not done so. Your attacks upon me are unwarranted, and I doubt very much that they are earning you any respect from your peers here.
    Alphington Industries - Home | Facebook

    ^^^^^ So this is you Right?

    So you are originally toolmaker (from Australia) that recently bought an DMG MORI NTX 1000
    to build (old style) steam engines for small boats and other things..? Seems like you have been cutting parts on this machine already? And have taken delivery of it already ? No/Yes? pending? Pending legal case to be pressed, or threat of legal case?

    It's OK to say I'm a toolmaker from Australia with a company in Vietnam (Da Nang (province) sp)... (we could have had some good jokes about toolmakers etc... gain a bit of trust rather than mysterious first post). If someone posts from a claimed foreign territory and no-one knows or can vouch for them locally then sometimes one does have to be a bit more careful. ISIS has munition factories and uses machine tools and other nations and organizations that are committed to cause the USA and its allies real harm. [Best friend used to work in the "Bomb squad" in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Bosnia (where he got blown up)/ but survived... He's on disability... So these threats are real and US service men and women die as result, as well as civilians.].

    "Alphington industries is a manufacturing business that produces high quality CNC machined parts . Located in Vietnam we combine the advantage of low cost labor with the confidence that comes with Australian management and high tech Japanese equipment."


    It's OK to say what machine you have... As there are others here that can really help you; that may actually have the same machine.


    In your approach to sound circumspect / diplomatic you end up throwing three of four MTBs under the bus (at once) rather than just one... A lot of folks will sympathize with you with some of the issues that can sometimes happen and in some cases can be ironed out.

    We can all sympathize with the personal risks you are making, but I just really want to make sure that folks (including myself) are NOT being unwittingly drawn into providing information to someone we don't know that is trying to press a legal case. Legitimate or other wise.

    YES I was triggered (majorly) buy you tread starters... (2nd attempt as the first one sank).


    Here are some triggers.


    1. 5 axis (under nuclear non-proliferation agreements)
    a close eye is kept on that. (Anyone in a potentially hostile nation needs to offer up some assurances that they may not be building weapons). Just yesterday as you know the North Koreans NOW have the capability to reach anywhere on mainland USA. As you know none of this capability happens without decent knowledge of machine tools and use thereof. A lot of western capability has been sold through China with machine tools.

    2.
    Second trigger for me was that it seemed from your language that you were much more interested in pressing a LEGAL case than sorting out the technical issue. To be honest (to me) you sounded like a lawyer that was going to press a legal case to argue for 1/2 price on the delivered machine as the lower turret is not functional to your specs. I.e. For "Mysterious" Japanese MTB it's more expensive to remove the machine, so a compromise is met. Then later the problem is fixed so you effectively have a fully functional machine for 1/2 price?

    (2.5). Just as a side note I have adopted two children from Vietnam (mainly based in Hanoi and elsewhere (and have been active in international adoption for a number of years) and the level local corruption is absolutely manifest, maybe things are better now, but corruption seemed to definitely be the norm and witnessed a lot of naive and trusting Americans and other foreign nationals get really f*cked over that way (big time)).


    3. Initially it sounded more like a larger Vietnamese company had hired an Australian Lawyer (given that you use a lot of legal phrasing in your use of English) to press the case against a Japanese MTB... I.e. $1.2 or $2m million machine has been ordered and someone was just messing with the floor jacks/or someone loosened something at night as the installation crew "Are tearing their hair out" when they come back in the morning and can't figure out what's going on. But given you are smaller private company rather than a large state owned Vietnamese company then that is highly unlikely. But really sounded like (from your language) that you are a much larger firm pressing a substantial case against a Japanese MTB that is trying to make inroads to the ever growing Vietnamese market ever growing manufacturing base (BBC world service / BBC world news have done a number of reports/feature stories about that). And hence you also made veiled threats (of potential consequences) as this is the first (as you claim/say) of this type of machine in Vietnam. So first off it sounded like deliberately "Obstructive" state owned company minded to teach foreign (especially) Japanese companies how the "Game" is played... But instead it may be being the "little guy" you may indeed be given very short shrift by DMG MORI (in this case and this is what you are defending yourself against? )... (That would not be the first time), but sounds like you are forewarned and armed? PM forum is very much about smaller private companies trying to make it too, so don't be afraid to 'Tap" into that (if there's a "fit" there).


    If feel like saying don't "Worry" about DMG Mori, worry about your machine and the folks here are VERY good with very specific technical issues no honor lost in that). I'm sure DMG Mori are just as keen to sort that out as anyone. YKWIM..? But as I say don't throw three or four MTBs under the bus at once instead of one. From what you were saying I was wondering if it was Nakamura as they are new to Mill-turn and like their box ways, so wondering if really rigid machine was not "square and plumb" somehow from transportation damage??? , Or if your first attempt at a thread starter was a rival MTB/vendor trying to spread FUD about MAZAK or some other Machine tool builders (as a there are a not insubstantial number of bogus thread starters here that aim to do exactly that as well). [When I first came onto this forum there were more than a handful of folks PM-ing me about all kinds of BS to essentially blow me off course. Horror stories where individuals had specific axes to grind but were (from what I could tell) just bad management was the core issue and not the MTB. That's a further trigger for me as that blew me off course for more than a year researching MTBs and machines I didn't even need to be looking at (good to do the research).]. Time Is time that you can't get back.

    Sincerely I hope you resolve your machine issue BUT definitely bug these guys with specific technical information. That's what its all about (videos of specific set ups can really iron out a lot of problems (if there is a real problem), not so much about pressing a legal case due to lost (theoretical) production rates due to a turret being 9 micron out of tolerance during a tool change of the B-axis mill head or what may or may not be claimed on the glossy brochure ? YKWIM?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Alphington Industries - Home | Facebook

    ^^^^^ So this is you Right?

    So you are originally toolmaker (from Australia) that recently bought an DMG MORI NTX 1000
    to build (old style) steam engines for small boats and other things..? Seems like you have been cutting parts on this machine already? And have taken delivery of it already ? No/Yes? pending? Pending legal case to be pressed, or threat of legal case?

    It's OK to say I'm a toolmaker from Australia with a company in Vietnam (Da Nang (province) sp)... (we could have had some good jokes about toolmakers etc... gain a bit of trust rather than mysterious first post). If someone posts from a claimed foreign territory and no-one knows or can vouch for them locally then sometimes one does have to be a bit more careful. ISIS has munition factories and uses machine tools and other nations and organizations that are committed to cause the USA and its allies real harm. [Best friend used to work in the "Bomb squad" in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Bosnia (where he got blown up)/ but survived... He's on disability... So these threats are real and US service men and women die as result, as well as civilians.].

    "Alphington industries is a manufacturing business that produces high quality CNC machined parts . Located in Vietnam we combine the advantage of low cost labor with the confidence that comes with Australian management and high tech Japanese equipment."


    It's OK to say what machine you have... As there are others here that can really help you; that may actually have the same machine.


    In your approach to sound circumspect / diplomatic you end up throwing three of four MTBs under the bus (at once) rather than just one... A lot of folks will sympathize with you with some of the issues that can sometimes happen and in some cases can be ironed out.

    We can all sympathize with the personal risks you are making, but I just really want to make sure that folks (including myself) are NOT being unwittingly drawn into providing information to someone we don't know that is trying to press a legal case. Legitimate or other wise.

    YES I was triggered (majorly) buy you tread starters... (2nd attempt as the first one sank).


    Here are some triggers.


    1. 5 axis (under nuclear non-proliferation agreements)
    a close eye is kept on that. (Anyone in a potentially hostile nation needs to offer up some assurances that they may not be building weapons). Just yesterday as you know the North Koreans NOW have the capability to reach anywhere on mainland USA. As you know none of this capability happens without decent knowledge of machine tools and use thereof. A lot of western capability has been sold through China with machine tools.

    2.
    Second trigger for me was that it seemed from your language that you were much more interested in pressing a LEGAL case than sorting out the technical issue. To be honest (to me) you sounded like a lawyer that was going to press a legal case to argue for 1/2 price on the delivered machine as the lower turret is not functional to your specs. I.e. For "Mysterious" Japanese MTB it's more expensive to remove the machine, so a compromise is met. Then later the problem is fixed so you effectively have a fully functional machine for 1/2 price?

    (2.5). Just as a side note I have adopted two children from Vietnam (mainly based in Hanoi and elsewhere (and have been active in international adoption for a number of years) and the level local corruption is absolutely manifest, maybe things are better now, but corruption seemed to definitely be the norm and witnessed a lot of naive and trusting Americans and other foreign nationals get really f*cked over that way (big time)).


    3. Initially it sounded more like a larger Vietnamese company had hired an Australian Lawyer (given that you use a lot of legal phrasing in your use of English) to press the case against a Japanese MTB... I.e. $1.2 or $2m million machine has been ordered and someone was just messing with the floor jacks/or someone loosened something at night as the installation crew "Are tearing their hair out" when they come back in the morning and can't figure out what's going on. But given you are smaller private company rather than a large state owned Vietnamese company then that is highly unlikely. But really sounded like (from your language) that you are a much larger firm pressing a substantial case against a Japanese MTB that is trying to make inroads to the ever growing Vietnamese market ever growing manufacturing base (BBC world service / BBC world news have done a number of reports/feature stories about that). And hence you also made veiled threats (of potential consequences) as this is the first (as you claim/say) of this type of machine in Vietnam. So first off it sounded like deliberately "Obstructive" state owned company minded to teach foreign (especially) Japanese companies how the "Game" is played... But instead it may be being the "little guy" you may indeed be given very short shrift by DMG MORI (in this case and this is what you are defending yourself against? )... (That would not be the first time), but sounds like you are forewarned and armed? PM forum is very much about smaller private companies trying to make it too, so don't be afraid to 'Tap" into that (if there's a "fit" there).


    If feel like saying don't "Worry" about DMG Mori, worry about your machine and the folks here are VERY good with very specific technical issues no honor lost in that). I'm sure DMG Mori are just as keen to sort that out as anyone. YKWIM..? But as I say don't throw three or four MTBs under the bus at once instead of one. From what you were saying I was wondering if it was Nakamura as they are new to Mill-turn and like their box ways, so wondering if really rigid machine was not "square and plumb" somehow from transportation damage??? , Or if your first attempt at a thread starter was a rival MTB/vendor trying to spread FUD about MAZAK or some other Machine tool builders (as a there are a not insubstantial number of bogus thread starters here that aim to do exactly that as well). [When I first came onto this forum there were more than a handful of folks PM-ing me about all kinds of BS to essentially blow me off course. Horror stories where individuals had specific axes to grind but were (from what I could tell) just bad management was the core issue and not the MTB. That's a further trigger for me as that blew me off course for more than a year researching MTBs and machines I didn't even need to be looking at (good to do the research).]. Time Is time that you can't get back.

    Sincerely I hope you resolve your machine issue BUT definitely bug these guys with specific technical information. That's what its all about (videos of specific set ups can really iron out a lot of problems (if there is a real problem), not so much about pressing a legal case due to lost (theoretical) production rates due to a turret being 9 micron out of tolerance during a tool change of the B-axis mill head or what may or may not be claimed on the glossy brochure ? YKWIM?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________
    So, you have discovered that I am real and you're earlier derogatory remarks are not your fault because you were confused by your delusions, no surprise to some I am sure. Just as you have found that your previous assertions about me were mistaken, so are many of the assertions that you make now here above. You can write 10,000 words trying to justify your detours from reality but you should know that you are the only one listening. I am afraid that your real brilliance falls far short of your delusions of brilliance. Perhaps you know something about CNC machines,it seems likely, but of business and business law you appear to actually know precious little. Business people here will completely understand my approach to this particular problem even if you don't. Sunday night I fly to Japan to meet with the CEO of the manufacture and his engineering team to work on resolving the problem, this is how successful business people work together, not by trying to gain points by making smart remarks about people, or to discredit people, that they don't know, on the internet. Let me know when the CEO of a multinational CNC machine manufacturer invites you to Japan at his expense to discuss your problem and to have you work with his engineering team for three days to resolve your particular problem, then perhaps we can exchange notes about what is real compared with what is just in the pills that you took today. I will not continue this exchange any further, I can't waste the time.

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  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    So, you have discovered that I am real and you're earlier derogatory remarks are not your fault because you were confused by your delusions, no surprise to some I am sure. Just as you have found that your previous assertions about me were mistaken, so are many of the assertions that you make now here above. You can write 10,000 words trying to justify your detours from reality but you should know that you are the only one listening. I am afraid that your real brilliance falls far short of your delusions of brilliance. Perhaps you know something about CNC machines,it seems likely, but of business and business law you appear to actually know precious little. Business people here will completely understand my approach to this particular problem even if you don't. Sunday night I fly to Japan to meet with the CEO of the manufacture and his engineering team to work on resolving the problem, this is how successful business people work together, not by trying to gain points by making smart remarks about people, or to discredit people, that they don't know, on the internet. Let me know when the CEO of a multinational CNC machine manufacturer invites you to Japan at his expense to discuss your problem and to have you work with his engineering team for three days to resolve your particular problem, then perhaps we can exchange notes about what is real compared with what is just in the pills that you took today. I will not continue this exchange any further, I can't waste the time.
    Vietnam Corruption Report

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...corruption.htm

    Business as usual: Bribery remains a way of life in Vietnam | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily

    Vietnam | Business ethics and anti-corruption – Asia Pacific laws | Global law firm | Norton Rose Fulbright

    Corruption in Vietnam - Wikipedia

    https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ics/2013/204760.htm

    https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/viet...ption-problem/


    Ad infinitum...

    I am a CEO and Ph.D and I have granted patents in about 20 different international territories including considerable IP in Japan (some of the Japanese examiners were so impressed with one of the filed inventions they cited no prior art and even suggested broader wording of the claims; that's extremely rare (also filed in Japanese).

    For me you crossed a line when you dismissed out of hand what Litlerob1 wrote about second ops... And lower turrets in deference to your in hand brochure claims. At that point I knew things were kinda messed up.

    I'm not fit to hold littleRob1's shoes/sandals and you pulled out of the hat a very dismissive and not well considered argument without bothering to figure out who you were talking to.

    That guy LittlRob1 has more experience with the kind of machines you are trying to get with than you could possibly shake a stick at.

    A lot of the guys on this forum have done way more than you would ever suppose and have contributed to their countries and knowledge and progress of mankind in no small measure.

    LittleRob1 as I have discovered more recently (past few months) actually carried out some extremely important and seminal work at IBM (if I have that right, I'm sure he is very modest about that).

    Of all the forum members (amongst other's) he's one of the one's I'd most like to have beer with... (He's done some considerable work over the years).

    A bit of transparency and a bit of sense of humor goes a long way here... And any oblique references I may have made are extremely mild to the kind of Shizzle that can be meted out here (not least by other notable Ozzies on here ) that have waaaay better BS detectors than I have.

    But moreover there are good guys here that have run DMG Mori B-axis mill turn machines that can actually help you... Yeah?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

    It would not kill you to post videos and share the technical problems you have...

    I have no doubt you will get what you want but if they sold you a literally bent machine I'm sure they will do right by you. It's unfortunate you have to fly to Japan to sort that all out? Kind of a hassle.

    Good Luck! [As I say I'm sure you will get what you want (as stated previously)].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Vietnam Corruption Report

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...corruption.htm

    Business as usual: Bribery remains a way of life in Vietnam | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily

    Vietnam | Business ethics and anti-corruption – Asia Pacific laws | Global law firm | Norton Rose Fulbright

    Corruption in Vietnam - Wikipedia

    https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ics/2013/204760.htm

    https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/viet...ption-problem/


    Ad infinitum...

    I am a CEO and Ph.D and I have granted patents in about 20 different international territories including considerable IP in Japan (some of the Japanese examiners were so impressed with one of the filed inventions they cited no prior art and even suggested broader wording of the claims; that's extremely rare (also filed in Japanese).

    For me you crossed a line when you dismissed out of hand what Litlerob1 wrote about second ops... And lower turrets in deference to your in hand brochure claims. At that point I knew things were kinda messed up.

    I'm not fit to hold littleRob1's shoes/sandals and you pulled out of the hat a very dismissive and not well considered argument without bothering to figure out who you were talking to.

    That guy LittlRob1 has more experience with the kind of machines you are trying to get with than you could possibly shake a stick at.

    A lot of the guys on this forum have done way more than you would ever suppose and have contributed to their countries and knowledge and progress of mankind in no small measure.

    LittleRob1 as I have discovered more recently (past few months) actually carried out some extremely important and seminal work at IBM (if I have that right, I'm sure he is very modest about that).

    Of all the forum members (amongst other's) he's one of the one's I'd most like to have beer with... (He's done some considerable work over the years).

    A bit of transparency and a bit of sense of humor goes a long way here... And any oblique references I may have made are extremely mild to the kind of Shizzle that can be meted out here (not least by other notable Ozzies on here ) that have waaaay better BS detectors than I have.

    But moreover there are good guys here that have run DMG Mori B-axis mill turn machines that can actually help you... Yeah?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

    It would not kill you to post videos and share the technical problems you have...

    I have no doubt you will get what you want but if they sold you a literally bent machine I'm sure they will do right by you. It's unfortunate you have to fly to Japan to sort that all out? Kind of a hassle.

    Good Luck! [As I say I'm sure you will get what you want (as stated previously)].
    If you open your eyes and look at my reply to LittleRob1 you will see as bellow that I suggested that "Perhaps we have some confusion over terms": As below. So in fact I was not dismissive of his statement at all, I went back to see if in fact we were clear in our discussion and if we were using the same terms.

    The milling head alone can perform 2nd ops on the 2nd spindle, milling or turning without the turret right? So the turret is not required for 2nd ops, it is required for simultaneous opps. I have taken your term "2nd opps" to mean secondary operations, being operations that happens later. Perhaps we have some confusion over terms? Where I said " simple parts" I meant to say simple turning operations. My point is, that if the turret cannot be used simultaneously with the milling head working on the other spindle then the machine fails in it's intended purpose. I submit that one cannot expect to perform high precision turning in one spindle while rough milling simultaneously on the other. My initial question was, should I expect to be able to run a finish cut using the turret on the left spindle while performing a tool change on the milling head? What I do know for sure is this, I can take a finish cut on the RIGHT spindle and simultaneously change the tool in the milling head with ZERO effect on the turret turned finish/accuracy. I would have expected that the right spindle would be more susceptible to deviations given that it is not a fixed component, however the opposite is true in my case. [/COLOR]

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Vietnam Corruption Report

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...corruption.htm

    Business as usual: Bribery remains a way of life in Vietnam | Politics | Thanh Nien Daily

    Vietnam | Business ethics and anti-corruption – Asia Pacific laws | Global law firm | Norton Rose Fulbright

    Corruption in Vietnam - Wikipedia

    https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ics/2013/204760.htm

    https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/viet...ption-problem/


    Ad infinitum...

    I am a CEO and Ph.D and I have granted patents in about 20 different international territories including considerable IP in Japan (some of the Japanese examiners were so impressed with one of the filed inventions they cited no prior art and even suggested broader wording of the claims; that's extremely rare (also filed in Japanese).

    For me you crossed a line when you dismissed out of hand what Litlerob1 wrote about second ops... And lower turrets in deference to your in hand brochure claims. At that point I knew things were kinda messed up.

    I'm not fit to hold littleRob1's shoes/sandals and you pulled out of the hat a very dismissive and not well considered argument without bothering to figure out who you were talking to.

    That guy LittlRob1 has more experience with the kind of machines you are trying to get with than you could possibly shake a stick at.

    A lot of the guys on this forum have done way more than you would ever suppose and have contributed to their countries and knowledge and progress of mankind in no small measure.

    LittleRob1 as I have discovered more recently (past few months) actually carried out some extremely important and seminal work at IBM (if I have that right, I'm sure he is very modest about that).

    Of all the forum members (amongst other's) he's one of the one's I'd most like to have beer with... (He's done some considerable work over the years).

    A bit of transparency and a bit of sense of humor goes a long way here... And any oblique references I may have made are extremely mild to the kind of Shizzle that can be meted out here (not least by other notable Ozzies on here ) that have waaaay better BS detectors than I have.

    But moreover there are good guys here that have run DMG Mori B-axis mill turn machines that can actually help you... Yeah?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

    It would not kill you to post videos and share the technical problems you have...

    I have no doubt you will get what you want but if they sold you a literally bent machine I'm sure they will do right by you. It's unfortunate you have to fly to Japan to sort that all out? Kind of a hassle.

    Good Luck! [As I say I'm sure you will get what you want (as stated previously)].
    Why are you being such an asshole and making all kinds of asumptions MR Camraman? You have attacked this guy via you wild-ass guesses that turned out to be 100% wrong. What the hell is it any of your business anyways?
    He came seeking an opinion on an issue he is having and being rather classy about it compared to many other first time posters of the like. Also how you get he through the other MTB under the bus is beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Mathews View Post
    Why are you being such an asshole and making all kinds of asumptions MR Camraman? You have attacked this guy via you wild-ass guesses that turned out to be 100% wrong. What the hell is it any of your business anyways?
    He came seeking an opinion on an issue he is having and being rather classy about it compared to many other first time posters of the like. Also how you get he through the other MTB under the bus is beyond me.
    It's fine if you think you think I'm being an asshole... No where near the typical level asshole-ishness that presents itself here sometimes.

    I think It's the fact that information is being solicited to press a legal case as I say which may or may not be legitimate.

    If you are aware of that possibility that's fine, that's your choice. Corruption is rife in Vietnam and one should at least make sure that one is not being an unwitting accomplice to fraud or corruption.

    Normal preponderance of likely hoods... 1. Japanese Machine tool builder built the machine wrong (Alphington postulated that the Japanese MTB's don't build their machines right or their facilities are lacking in that respect... VS. Something corrupt dodgy or weird just because of how things go down in Vietnam... And as I indicated that may not be anything direct that Alphington is doing either. A lot can happen from leaving Japan to making it to Alphington's shop.

    So which is more likely ?

    I put forward the idea that something has happened to his machine from the factory to his shop floor?


    Or I asked the question are the installers experienced installers? (No answer to that).


    I really don't have anything personal against Alphington (far from it actually), But the tone, approach, angle and "Tenor" of the post... Is what bother's me a bit.

    I'm not saying that Alphington is deliberately throwing 3 or 4 MTBS under the bus, but inadvertently as ONLY in Japan MAZAK, OKUMA , Mori Seiki / DMG mori and more recently Nakamura make B axis mill turn machines.

    So if you are someone that has spent considerable $ on an Okuma B axis machine or a MAZAK or a DMG Mori... the what Aplhington reports may indeed be right... OK. So if that's the case "We" need to know about that. Would be helpful, but as I say there are a number of Bogus threads that are started on PM forum from mysterious locations whose sole purpose is to create FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt). But Aplington has raised the issue or possibility that B axis Mill turn machines in general when making tool changes on the milling head essentially corrupt the spatial accuracy of the relationship between the lower turret (if you have one) and the main spindle. That IS the information and possibility he is soliciting to press his case against DMG Mori.

    Folks that are private business men and women have taken considerable risks with their own $ and also have particular MTBs they are very loyal to; OKUMA being a good example of that. So it's a bit like your favorite football team/ sports team and loyalty there of.


    My concern is this, that poor Alphington is going to Japan to make a real Hulabaloo and press his case whereas it maybe the solution to the technical problem he is experiencing is a really simple fix or may in fact be a very simple error, YKWIM.

    That's why as a partial sanity check if he had a video showing more or less real time the problem he's having... Exactly what he describes,

    B axis travelling column mill moves to tool change and turret (I'm guessing) splays apart or closes up by 9 micron?

    I can think of a few things that would cause that kind of reading but we have almost zero information.

    Here's one for Aplhington (a legit question)... What is the legal contingency for shipping damage/bad storage etc.? So in other words the machine leaves Japan fine but something happens between shipping and your shop floor? With your contract how much time do you have to refuse delivery? Are you buying the machine outright or is there financing involved?

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    Default Original post that "sank" ... unanswered.

    Alphinton wrote:

    Thread title : I & J series Integrex and similar multitasking machines. turning accuracy


    "A question for owners/operators of integrex I or J series machines or similar multitasking machines. Particularly machines with 2 spindles (left and right) with both upper milling spindle and lower turret.

    If you are turning using the lower turret on the left hand spindle, and you simultaneously call a tool change on the milling head, does the weight shift in the machine or the vibrations made during the tool change cause defects/inaccuracies in the turned finish? "



    I & J series Integrex and similar multitasking machines. turning accuracy

    ^^^ Post in it's original form.


    So although he bought a DMG Mori machine he is re-framing his question to cast doubt on a MAZAK integrex I or J...?

    Especially turning accuracies being screwed up as result of B axis mill head tool changes.


    A lot of PM forum member contact for me test sheets and I NEVER hand them out.

    That kind of post really cast doubt on Mill turn machines in general versus a dedicated 5 axis vertical and 4th axis lathe/lathes... (that was part of the discussion) and Littlrob made the point about needing specific style of parts for that...

    That's the one thing that MAZAK is really good at (the Integrex) seems to be being thrown under the bus here .... EVEN though Alphington purchased a NTX 1000 ?


    So which is it?


    You tell me?


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