Problem with simultanious machining on multitasking machines - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I really don't have anything personal against Alphington (far from it actually), But the tone, approach, angle and "Tenor" of the post... Is what bother's me a bit.
    Cameraman,

    I say this as someone who usually respects what you say and finds your posts interesting, but you're going far beyond 'let's ask questions, make sure things are how they look, and help suggest solutions.'

    1) you say you don't have anything personal against Alphington, but, so far you've all but accused him of lying about the foundation concrete tests (which are actually pretty standard) and you said he had "cluster B personality disorders especially related to malignant narcissism and sociopathy."

    2) you complain that he hasn't answered all of your questions. Be honest, if someone accused you of lying when you answered previous questions and called you a narcissistic sociopath, would you spend the time to respond to all of their questions?

    3) I can't fault Alphington's decision not to name the MTB. This is not a private forum. With PM's high ranking in Google results, it is a responsible decision. If, after the MTB finishes their investigation, it turns out to be shipping damage, etc. and not representative of the machine or builder, there won't be a high profile link on Google saying they suck.

    If your intent has not been to insult Alphington and call him a liar and a fraud, you have done an incredibly poor job of communication. If that is your intent, have the decency to come out and say it rather than accusing him and/or his company of extortion and then saying "...I'm just razzing you a bit as Vietnam is very difficult unless you 'play the game'"

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    It's fine if you think you think I'm being an asshole... No where near the typical level asshole-ishness that presents itself here sometimes.

    I think It's the fact that information is being solicited to press a legal case as I say which may or may not be legitimate.

    If you are aware of that possibility that's fine, that's your choice. Corruption is rife in Vietnam and one should at least make sure that one is not being an unwitting accomplice to fraud or corruption.

    Normal preponderance of likely hoods... 1. Japanese Machine tool builder built the machine wrong (Alphington postulated that the Japanese MTB's don't build their machines right or their facilities are lacking in that respect... VS. Something corrupt dodgy or weird just because of how things go down in Vietnam... And as I indicated that may not be anything direct that Alphington is doing either. A lot can happen from leaving Japan to making it to Alphington's shop.

    So which is more likely ?

    I put forward the idea that something has happened to his machine from the factory to his shop floor?


    Or I asked the question are the installers experienced installers? (No answer to that).


    I really don't have anything personal against Alphington (far from it actually), But the tone, approach, angle and "Tenor" of the post... Is what bother's me a bit.

    I'm not saying that Alphington is deliberately throwing 3 or 4 MTBS under the bus, but inadvertently as ONLY in Japan MAZAK, OKUMA , Mori Seiki / DMG mori and more recently Nakamura make B axis mill turn machines.

    So if you are someone that has spent considerable $ on an Okuma B axis machine or a MAZAK or a DMG Mori... the what Aplhington reports may indeed be right... OK. So if that's the case "We" need to know about that. Would be helpful, but as I say there are a number of Bogus threads that are started on PM forum from mysterious locations whose sole purpose is to create FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt). But Aplington has raised the issue or possibility that B axis Mill turn machines in general when making tool changes on the milling head essentially corrupt the spatial accuracy of the relationship between the lower turret (if you have one) and the main spindle. That IS the information and possibility he is soliciting to press his case against DMG Mori.

    Folks that are private business men and women have taken considerable risks with their own $ and also have particular MTBs they are very loyal to; OKUMA being a good example of that. So it's a bit like your favorite football team/ sports team and loyalty there of.


    My concern is this, that poor Alphington is going to Japan to make a real Hulabaloo and press his case whereas it maybe the solution to the technical problem he is experiencing is a really simple fix or may in fact be a very simple error, YKWIM.

    That's why as a partial sanity check if he had a video showing more or less real time the problem he's having... Exactly what he describes,

    B axis travelling column mill moves to tool change and turret (I'm guessing) splays apart or closes up by 9 micron?

    I can think of a few things that would cause that kind of reading but we have almost zero information.

    Here's one for Aplhington (a legit question)... What is the legal contingency for shipping damage/bad storage etc.? So in other words the machine leaves Japan fine but something happens between shipping and your shop floor? With your contract how much time do you have to refuse delivery? Are you buying the machine outright or is there financing involved?
    I really can't believe that I find myself wasting more time on this but here goes.

    Some of us really are smarter than others, not born smart, but had smart beaten into us. I have been in business for more than 30 years, Alphington is just one of my businesses. Over the years I have been screwed by many, I have paid off my house and lost it and paid off another house, all because I did not consider the possible risks of various deals. When I ordered this particular machine I was extremely careful. 1st, I made sure that the foundation I had poured was not going to be a reason for any machine manufacturer to hide behind in any debate about accuracy.( I have heard horror stories to) Second, I ordered the machine as bolted to my floor and commissioned.i.e. The machine manufacturer is 100% liable for all transport and insurance from the factory in Japan to my factory floor including all loading, unloading and moving of the machine every single mm of the way. I did not lend them a single tool or a single worker or even let them use my forklift truck. I provided ZERO opportunity for my company to share in any responsibility for the transport of the machine. 3rd, the machine manufacturer is responsible for all insurance cover for the machine while it sits in my factory until I sign the acceptance report. 4th, the machine manufacture is responsible to check that my factory building and the foundation is suitable for my machine Prior to signing the contract with me.5th The machine manufacture remains the full owner of the machine until I sign the acceptance report and pay the last payment. 6th, the machine manufacture has 12 months from the time I sign the contract to complete delivery and pass the acceptance testing , if they don't get it done, I can ( at my option) cancel the contract and have every last penny returned to me. There were some machine manufacturers that would not accept my conditions and so were excluded from consideration. I paid about 2.5% more than the original negotiated price in order to get the machine manufacturer to agree to my contract conditions, I would suggest that they probably spent that 2.5% on insurance. I ordered my machine on 22 Dec last year, so with the clock ticking you can imagine the machine manufacturer is keen for me to waver my right to cancel, and would prefer to work together on the technical solution. My ass is completely covered........Buying the machine outright or on Finance????? How is that possibly relevant? If it's paid by cash I loose the bank interest by not having my cash in my bank, if it's on finance I have to pay the interest to the bank,it's that same type of lost with minimal difference. BUT I have no loss to claim from this perspective because machine manufacturers very carefully exclude the risk of consequential losses when writing their contracts and that is one thing that they will not remove. The cost of financing a machine that is not yet delivered or not yet operable is carried by the purchaser, and I have this covered. This is where you are just so screwed up in your thinking, let me tell you once again. I don't have a need to push a legal case, the machine manufacturer has already accepted that my particular machine has a bug that is yet to be identified. MY ONLY REASON FOR COMING HERE WAS TO ENSURE THAT I HAVE A LEGITIMATE REASON TO COMPLAIN ABOUT A PROBLEM THAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT, BECAUSE I DON'T WISH TO WAR WITH MY MACHINE SUPPLIER, BUT I DO WISH TO HAVE AN ACCURATE MACHINE THAT IS NOT GOING TO CAUSE ME PROBLEMS IN THE FUTURE IF IT'S CURRENT PROBLEM GETS EVEN WORSE OVER TIME. Your delusions about some kind of conspiracy are just that, DELUSIONS. How many people need to tell you that you are out of line before your realize that you are? You screw around looking for this loophole or that loophole in my story, you started trying to tell everybody that English couldn't be my native language because you don't like my sentence construction and then turned around a paragraph later saying that I must be a lawyer because no engineer speaks legal English this well. You do realize that everybody else sees this as crazy right?

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    Cameraman,

    I say this as someone who usually respects what you say and finds your posts interesting, but you're going far beyond 'let's ask questions, make sure things are how they look, and help suggest solutions.'

    1) you say you don't have anything personal against Alphington, but, so far you've all but accused him of lying about the foundation concrete tests (which are actually pretty standard) and you said he had "cluster B personality disorders especially related to malignant narcissism and sociopathy."

    2) you complain that he hasn't answered all of your questions. Be honest, if someone accused you of lying when you answered previous questions and called you a narcissistic sociopath, would you spend the time to respond to all of their questions?

    3) I can't fault Alphington's decision not to name the MTB. This is not a private forum. With PM's high ranking in Google results, it is a responsible decision. If, after the MTB finishes their investigation, it turns out to be shipping damage, etc. and not representative of the machine or builder, there won't be a high profile link on Google saying they suck.

    If your intent has not been to insult Alphington and call him a liar and a fraud, you have done an incredibly poor job of communication. If that is your intent, have the decency to come out and say it rather than accusing him and/or his company of extortion and then saying "...I'm just razzing you a bit as Vietnam is very difficult unless you 'play the game'"
    Thanks. Can I just say that any country is difficult unless your follow their methods, as you say, play the game. The thing is this, it is THEIR GAME. If people don't like the rule set of a different country then they should just stay out of that country. It is really easy to avoid the frustration, just don't get involved. I can honestly say that I don't need to pay any money under the table for anything. I run my business 100% by the rules, and when you do that, you don't need to get involved with corrupt people. It is when you start trying to go around the rules that you get people asking for money. In many cases, remembering that I have relationships here with dozens of foreign companies, you find yourself with some intermediary telling you that you have to pay some bribe to the government official, when in actual fact the intermediary takes the money and the government official gets ZIP. I had problems with a freight company in the early days asking me to pay money to get a shipment through customs because HE SAID, we have to tip an official. I went down and processed the documentation myself and was not asked for a cent. It was much worse in the old days, I know people that have been here for 20 years, but now the government is trying really hard to loose the bad reputation. If you live in Australia or the USA or anywhere else, you don't like to see foreigners come in an tell you how to do things, you tell them if they don't like it they should get out. Why should Vietnam be any different? There is plenty that I don't like here, and there was plenty that I didn't like in Australia, but I like the rules here better. Our friend harbors a deep resentment for Vietnam, guess what, some Vietnamese, especially in the north where our friend encounter his problems, harbor some pretty deep resentments about Australians and Americans.

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  6. #44
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    Having now spent 2 full days at the manufacturers show room in Japan running the identical test on the manufacturers machine using the same actual tooling and work pieces that were used to test my machine, and also running the same level checks to see if moving the milling head changes the level of the machine as it does on my machine, I found that the manufacturers showroom machine has the identical characteristics as my machine. In fact the two machines behave so closely the same it leaves little doubt that every machine of this model must indeed have the same problem. Inspection of a machine currently under construction that has yet to receive it's covers clearly showed a lack of feet under the machine's main spindle. Further measurements with a dial indicator between the machines base and the floor in the area directly under and around the main spindle show quite clearly that the base of the machine in the area that directly supports the main spindle is moving up and down 20+ microns as the milling head is traversed from left to right to left. The machine manufacture states that all customers with this machine simply park the milling head during finish cuts on the main spindle. The manufacture has agreed to supply and fit two extra feet under the machine in the area of the main main spindle to see if the problem can be reduced. It would appear that simultaneous machining really only means simultaneous roughing.

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphington View Post
    Having now spent 2 full days at the manufacturers show room in Japan... It would appear that simultaneous machining really only means simultaneous roughing.
    Thanks a ton for sharing the conclusion to this saga. I was thinking about this thread yesterday and wondering how things turned out. Good of the mfg to be transparent with you about the process of determining root cause, though unfortunate that their marketing paints a rosier picture than reality.


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