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Recommendations on smaller ID/OD grooving and threading tools

viper

Titanium
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
nowhereville
I think I touched on this last year and but have yet to make a change. Some new parts coming down the line will force us to tool up a bit. Need RH ID and OD grooving tools and ID and OD threading tools. There is a huge assortment of tools with drastically different prices and performance. Looking to stay with something that is maybe standardized rather than proprietary unless there is a real good reason to go there.

Variety of insert grades and geom will paint the picture. Pretty much all we have now is standardized tooling which makes finding surplus inserts nice.

I will give a few instances here for thoughts.

1. ID groove, .046 wide, .030 deep, bore hole .876 diam, reach 1.00, 303SS

2. OD thread, custom 1.375x18tpi, 6061

3. OD groove, OD 1.00, groove .045 wide, .045 deep, 6061

4. ID thread, standard 5/8x18tpi, 2" reach, 303SS, prefer single point on this.

5. ID groove, .750 bore, groove depth .200, width, .313, reach 1.0", 303SS, groove is on back of part so trying to reach in without flipping part. Picture a counterbore on both sides of part. Not sure if this one is even possible.


I know some mentioned solid carbides for some of this and that might be more economical considering insert costs. Not sure if our grinder can do any of this though.
 
We used to have solid carbide bars custom ground for ID grooving small diameters in Inco 713 parts. Many insert bars are merely scaled down versions of larger tooling and do not work for shit at small scale. For example, size 2, 3, and 4 Kennametal Top Notch inserts work great on many materials, but size 1 inserts are completely useless in everything but delrin because neither the insert or toolholder has any strength.

However, new insert designs like PH Horn and Iscar work damn good. Custom inserts are available and the mounting system is rock solid.

I will give a few instances here for thoughts.

1. ID groove, .046 wide, .030 deep, bore hole .876 diam, reach 1.00, 303SS

4. ID thread, standard 5/8x18tpi, 2" reach, 303SS, prefer single point on this.

5. ID groove, .750 bore, groove depth .200, width, .313, reach 1.0", 303SS, groove is on back of part so trying to reach in without flipping part.
The PH Horn 114 series bar will do ALL these operations with the same boring bar--just change to appropriate insert and reprobe tool. Done. :smoking:

No affiliation, yada, yada. They make my life MUCH easier compared to old tooling when running exotic alloys.

Grooving ~ Horn USA, Inc.
 

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We have been using the ISCAR PICCO line for years, and they just keep getting better. I can swap out the tool and be within .0005" of the last one.
 
We used to have solid carbide bars custom ground for ID grooving small diameters in Inco 713 parts. Many insert bars are merely scaled down versions of larger tooling and do not work for shit at small scale. For example, size 2, 3, and 4 Kennametal Top Notch inserts work great on many materials, but size 1 inserts are completely useless in everything but delrin because neither the insert or toolholder has any strength.

However, new insert designs like PH Horn and Iscar work damn good. Custom inserts are available and the mounting system is rock solid.


The PH Horn 114 series bar will do ALL these operations with the same boring bar--just change to appropriate insert and reprobe tool. Done. :smoking:

No affiliation, yada, yada. They make my life MUCH easier compared to old tooling when running exotic alloys.

Grooving ~ Horn USA, Inc.


Very impressed with the PH Horn line up. Certainly proprietary though and I would like to know what those pieces cost.

I was trying to find more information on the triangle insert systems that seem to be near standardized. The stand up radial cuts seem stronger along with notching ability over the laydown triangle inserts for ID tooling. Still trying to get a handle on the insert types and holder manufacturers.
 
I'll 3rd the recommendation on the Horn line, I was in somewhat of a discussion on the virtues of this type of system over on CNCgunsmithing forum where I don't seem to be able to convey the cost savings on this...you can lead 'em to water and all but...

I also saw recently that I think it was Vardex came out with a copycat line just like the Horns, or it may not have been them but another brand I was considering looking at (pretty sure it was Vardex, I like their threadmilling tools).

Anyway the flexibility of just one holder with the huge array of inserts that can be used on it is great! The cost for the ID grooving and single point threading inserts for me is just shy of $30 as of yesterday through my vendor (Bass Tool in Houston) but then I get a good discount through them.

John B
 
Very impressed with the PH Horn line up. Certainly proprietary though and I would like to know what those pieces cost.

I was trying to find more information on the triangle insert systems that seem to be near standardized. The stand up radial cuts seem stronger along with notching ability over the laydown triangle inserts for ID tooling. Still trying to get a handle on the insert types and holder manufacturers.
Iscar makes small 8mm carbide boring bars Iscar Thread which will take a boring insert or a triangle laydown threading inserts in same bar.

I believe the Iscar Chamgroove line inserts are interchangeable with the PH Horn inserts of same IC size. I have installed the inserts on either holder and while it worked fine, I am not sure 100% if it was correct.

For example, I can install a CPGM 31 insert into a CCMT boring bar, but the side clearance on the insert does not match the holder (11° vs 7°). Regardless, I do it all the time because the CPGM inserts we have in the crib work MUCH better than the CCMT ones for certain applications. :D

As far as cost, small insert tooling is spendy. I get it. However, the small spendy tooling which can cut Inconel reliably with few insert changes are actually much cheaper to operate per job. Be sure you do not overlook the time saved on the overall job (setup and run time) before cringing at $30 per insert. The PH Horn AlTiN coated inserts lasted at least 5x longer than the uncoated carbide custom bars, which also took longer to change than swapping an insert.

Not sure your part quantities per order or what type of shop you run. You mentioned eliminating an entire operation if you can run the counterbore from the front. It sounds like it may be worth the extra tooling cost to eliminate the additional chucking OP manhours even though current method uses much cheaper tooling.

Job shops need fast job changeover. One tool that takes many types and styles of inserts is helpful there. Kennametal's Top Notch versatility is an example of that. There are certainly better tools for performing dedicated threading which are cheaper to run, but that means more tooling to stock and also more tooling to swap out during a changeover.

Long running production shops need high efficiency tooling and are less concerned about daily job changeovers.
 

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Hi... I use this brand PH Horn type tools series B114 e B116 and inserts, them is very good tools for machined, but small problem is very difficult for to found.
need found inserts for thread machined
Someone have info where buy in E-shop or distributor that can sell and to send?
 
MSC sells PH Horn or order direct. For internal threading work I haven't found any better than Horn. However they do not have as broad of range of inserts as some others. I have been looking for inserts that fit. I use the 114 series and 105 or 108
 








 
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