Refurbised Fadal VMC40 M901-4, to buy, or why not?

Having gotten very frustrated with trying to keep my 1978 Matsuura MC1000V with Fanuc 3000c control running I am determined to get a newer and smaller/faster machine.
Nothing out there is going to use my old BT-45 tooling so I will need tooling no matter what I buy.

After months of looking at mostly "Ran when parked" machines where the best deals are all on the far side of the country, "As is - where is". I've located a LOCAL Fadal VMC40 M901-4.
It has been extensively refurbished with a new grease pack 10K spindle, rebuilt drive, all three axis ball-screws, thrust bearings and seals, etc.

Under $10K but at the limit of my modest budget once I start buying tooling.

Have been perusing this forum and other venues in an effort to learn more about older Fadals, but it seems seeking info on older machines is like watching sausage making.
So many conflicting opinions and horror stories to balance against "But mine is great!" responses.
I notice the same appears to be true for virtually any "Light" machine.
I also found the back story confirming that HAAS are FADAL clones which explains why they look so similar.

Seller has receipts for far more in parts and labor than the selling price, needs room for a much larger machine.

Pro's I see are U.S. made, that used to be a good thing.
Being local I got to see it run, listen to the spindle, examine the ball-screws and ways.
Seems parts are readily available and not horribly (Cough FANUC cough)expensive.
Only feature I am aware of not having is rigid tap, which I have never had so probably will not miss, but it seems it can be added for under $2K.
This is a box way machine.

Cons, Yah it's old but the ways do look excellent and almost everything else seems to have been rebuilt or replaced by a factory tech.
On-line discussion seems to indicate that the ball-screws are somewhat consumable but not expensive or hard to replace.
Some users complain that the tolerances drift as the machine warms up?
Have seen some discussions of tool changer issues and occasional use of a lubricant to prevent loud changes.
I know Fadal was sort of out of business but are back again.

I'm making mostly small parts in aluminum and 4140 steel, so far I can only dream of having enough work to run this machine hard or more than a couple of days a week.
My Matsuura was usually like swatting flies with a sledgehammer, slowly.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the CNC 88 control features, -1 and -2, MU = on-screen menu help, etc. but will learn it eventually.
Hints welcome!

Bottom line, I've not found another machine of similar condition within reasonable shipping range at the price.
So seriously, is there something I am missing here and need to know or look out for with a second look?
Is the control actually user friendly or not?

Have to get this right on the first try, no budget for a do-over.
And it looks like I will keep the Matsuura to work on as time permits until I get it running again, since I refuse to pay some one to take it away for what is probably a minor issue.

If that's the machine I see on ebay it looks pretty nice. As you say the parts replaced are worth more than the machine, if it's been properly rebuilt you'll have years of use before you need to replace anything expensive.

I would lift all the covers and make sure the ways are in good shape, make sure it's oiling, and on the x-axis at the limit of travel you can see the end of the turcite overhanging the baxways, you can tell their condition that way (at least on a 4020 you can)
If it's the ebay machine it has the -4 control which is a good upgrade, the calmotion usb is worth having. It looks like it has the pozi-drive belts for the spindle. You can tell if it can be retrofitted for rigid tapping by the model of inverter and if the spindle motor has a small shaft on the top. I don't have rigid tapping and wouldn't want to spend $2k to install it.

Well nothing wrong with VMC40 pretty much like a 4020 but with smaller
work envelope only 22X16 on the X and Y, kind of depends on the actual year.
you get a good honest 10 hp motor with a 10k spindle probably cat40 toolholders,
but some are bt40.
good repair parts availability at a no to bad of a price.
much would depend on the actual condition, what year, what cpu it has.

My 93 has a -4 cpu board with rigid tapping.
it's a simple machine to learn most of us use format 1.
format 2 will probaly run your fanuc g code.
it's not any kind of conversational control, other then relatively small simple parts
you would program with cadcam

get the owner to demonstrate it making a part

He ran a program for me and I've seen some aluminum parts he made, they looked very good.
It's an '86 using CAT-40 tooling which looks tiny compared to my old BT-45's.
FADAL 88 control but not HS, I believe this is also a -4 with extended memory and flash drive port added.
Rigid tapping upgrade about $1600.00, maybe later if I need it. Probably look for a 4th axis first.
Small enough machine that I have space and power for it without having to junk the Matsuura immediately.

I would be able to switch formats at will, as needed?

I'm a little nervous with the old "If it sounds too good to be true....."

If its the -4 software, its essentially an 88HS with a CNC88 face plate.

Ask them if it has the space bar menus.. I believe those came about in 93 with the -4 and HS.

If it is that one in Reno, it does look like they took good care of it.. I hate the shorty gray sheet metal though, but
that's not a big deal. The Calmotion USB thing is pretty cool, I've always wanted one.

If that is what your budget is, you probably aren't going to find a better machine local for the price.. It may not be the
best machine for that price, but when something breaks, and it will, it will then be the best machine.. Cheap parts, and tons
of support.

probably cat40 toolholders,
but some are bt40.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure all you have to do is unbolt the carousel disc and flip it over to convert from Cat to BT.

Richard/SIA said:

I would be able to switch formats at will, as needed?

Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of format 1, it was made for finger banging, it pretty much assumes things so you don't have to type
as much.. My biggest beef with Format 1 is getting it to stop where you want it, and it would go back to home
I believe to do tool changes.. Waste of time... The one thing I like about Format 1, if you have rigid tapping
a straight up G84 is rigid tapping.. In Format 2 its a little more complicated. If you are already Fanuc-ing,
Format 2.. I've hit the wrong post(Fanuc), didn't look at the code, sent it off to the machine, still didn't look
at the code and it ran the program just fine, the only reason I noticed was it didn't stop where I wanted it to.

I'm a little nervous with the old "If it sounds too good to be true....."

Click to expand...

I just got a '94 VMC15, basically completely rebuilt in the past 4years.. Even has the control and driver boards for
a 4th axis in it. And people here were saying 10k was too much..

I'd say you are right in the ball park.. I'd offer 5k and see what happens, if it is that one with the gray sheet metal,
its not going to move all that fast. If all that stuff is replaced and upgraded, its not really a 30 year old machine,
its maybe a 5 or 10 year old machine with ugly sheet metal.

I think its worth a bit of a premium being able to talk to the people that own it and ran it.. Knowing that its been
upgraded and has all those new(er) parts in it, at least to me, is worth a bit also.

Yes in Reno, don't care about color so long as it's not hot pink!
I've committed to buy it pending funds I am owed showing up on time.
Seller will not budge on the price, he has much more into it with the new spindle and other upgrades.
I've found similar size Matsuura and such for even lower prices but they are always in MI, IL, or ME so transport exceeds purchase cost!
Lots of machines in So Cal but no newer, usually not under power, no recent upgrades, and additional money since the brokers have them.
I can get this one to my shop for only $400.00 in transport cost = WIN?

I would suggest against it. Rigid tap will cost you well over 9K. You will need a new spindle drive, new spindle motor, new encoder, new spindle card with rigid tap eeproms and a new cable and new CPU with new software module. You could have 10 grand into getting rigid tapping. Let all machines older than 1993 rot. The spindle drives are weak and the control has literally almost zero memory. Your buying a dinosaur. You would be WAY ahead getting a 1993 or newer machine. Who cares about the ball screws or how it sounds its going to be a PITA just after you get it parked.

Speedie said:

I would suggest against it.

Click to expand...

I would have suggested to skip on it also, but its been upgraded to a -4 guts, which is '93 '94 ish...
The iron is the same, the drives are the same, and now with the upgraded guts, its essentially a '93 or '94
that just happened to be made 5 or 6 years earlier.

If it was the old straight 88 guts, I probably wouldn't pay 3k for it.

If a Fadal doesn't show up on my floor with rigid tap, I'm not buying the e-proms, too damn much money. I've got
2 machines that do NOT have rigid, a '93 and a '94. The spindle drives are (now) both capable of it, and both of the
spindle motors have the encoder in them, but its just too damn much money for too little return.

Yeh rigid tapping isn't that big a deal,
was told by its that there aren't very many machines out there that
are less then -4
with out the upgrades they would have stopped using it along time ago.
with the calmotion usb it is nice really don't need much memory with it
just dnc everything

Looks like a clean machine. If you buy it, I'd like pictures of the "spindle chiller" unit that is mounted to the lower right side of the chip pan.

Well it is mine now, should get it into the shop late next week.
Confirmed that it is an HS control.
Holiday seems to be delaying a response from Fadal on a simulation program.
I downloaded one from the web but it cannot open on my PC due to being corrupted.

Will take pics as requested, may add some racing stripes to improve appearance.

Do you make money with these machines or is this just a hobby? I only ask because if your trying to make a living with them your cheaper than I am and I am too cheap.

Trying to make money despite limited resources.
My old mill being dead has not helped.
Gave up some personal collection items I am unhappy about to raise this capitol.
Found cheaper machines out there but not so refurbished and upgraded as this one, Hurco in So. cal <$4500, Matsuura 500's $1300 - $2500 but back east.
Also found that a the cheap machines back east are way too expensive to ship across the country.
This one will only cost about $500 to get into my shop since it is local.
So despite my being cheap I still paid more than I could have for a more used but running machine.

Richard/SIA said:

Holiday seems to be delaying a response from Fadal on a simulation program.

Click to expand...

Simulation for what?? If its so you can figure out how to run the thing.. If you can read and follow
the directions on the screen, you can setup and run it... Literally a 2 paragraph crash course and
you'll be running it like a pro by the end of the day.. The control really IS THAT SIMPLE to use..

Good deal on the guts being up to HS snuff.

Will take pics as requested, may add some racing stripes to improve appearance.

Click to expand...

Paint it Fadal white, that gray is just god awful ugly and depressing.

Should be a good machine for you.. And when this one breaks, and it will like all old machines(and/or Fadals),
you'll be doing the happy dance with how cheap the parts you need are, and how easy they are to get.

Treat her well, MAINTAIN her, and talk nice to her, (YES, I talk to my machines, and NO they don't talk back), and
she'll do good for you.

Seller ran through the cold start, home, etc.
Very different than the Matsuura, home at center of travel to marks instead of X-Y +Zero for one example.

I would like to run simulation a few times before running the new spindle.
Have to find some tooling ASAP, could "Practice" with simulation while I gather up tooling.

Would also like for my part-time assistant to learn to run the machine.
He's never touched a CNC before and there is no way I will let him run this without his learning on a simulator first!

Hey Richard,

A Fadal isn't a '78 Fanuc.. In my opinion a spanking new Fanuc isn't nearly as user friendly as a 20
year old Fadal.

In a few months, or even weeks, you aren't going to want to fix that other machine. It really is that
easy.

Um, '78 Matsuura 1000V.
I was quoted $2500 to have it hauled away by the local rigger, who would then part it out.
So even if it just becomes a big manual machine I will find use for it.
One plus of getting the Fadal is that the greedy local rigger/mover who wanted so much to take the Matsuura gets NOTHING now.

Can you give any insight into the seller? It says he's a "factory Fadal tech", but the spindle and screws adds up to more than the asking price. What's his angle and why did he sell the sum of the parts for less than the pieces? It looks like he's a wheeler-dealer type, is that incorrect?

He said he is buying a brand new large Fadal mill with all the latest bells and whistles.
He also has a 4020? Fadal that will be for sale soon but at $12K it is beyond my reach.