Removing "water hardness" from coolant

dksoba · Jan 5, 2015

My Blaser rep came by and measured the ph and water hardness in some coolant that was sitting unused in a machine for 2 months. He noted that the hardness (or dissolved solids, I think) was a little on the high side. We measured the DI water coming out of my filter system and the hardness was too low to be measured. These measurements were taken with Aquadur 912 01 test strips (http://separations.co.za/fileadmin/...ii. RAPID TESTS/MN_AQUADUR_R__test_strips.pdf).

The problem I was having (low PH and oil coming out of emulsion) was solved by simply adding fresh water/coolant mix. However, the Blaser guy told me that the hardness can be a problem and to remove some of my coolant every year and replace with fresh coolant. I don't like the idea of removing any of my coolant because it is expensive to dispose of (I think I was quoted about $250 for a 55 gallon drum).

So, my question is, is there any way I can remove some of the water hardness from the coolant? Or is diluting the only option? Can I run my coolant through a deionizing filter, or will that potentially cause a problem or be ineffective?

Cheers,
Matt

Ox · Jan 5, 2015

I don't folow.
You said that the"hardness" was "too low to be measured", and then you say that it is too hard?
So "low" is "hardererest"???

For low Ph we started using TC-211 from Master Chemical earlier this last year.
Fixes most of what's wrong in the world.

TRIM Cutting & Grinding Fluid Additives - Master Chemical Corporation.

We have hard water. I don't know how hard "hard" is, but there aint no whiskey distillers 'round these h'yah parts.
Fluoride is pretty high from the well too.

------------------

Think Snow!
Ox

cnctoolcat · Jan 5, 2015

If Blaser has a weakness, it has been known to come out of solution after it sets a while.
That was my experience with it as well..

TooCat

Onepass · Jan 5, 2015

I got really hard water here. Its 24 degrees out. It got hard all of a sudden like...

brucecu · Jan 5, 2015

I think you need more info from your rep. Exactly what was he measuring? Calcium hardness, total hardness,total dissolved solids or.....?

What are the potential interferences to his test? For example, is a metal leaching from chips or the walls of the tank? Is carbon dioxide reacting with the coolant?

What does a little high mean? Is it a level requiring action or just an off-hand remark?

dstryr · Jan 5, 2015

We used Blaser for over 10 years. Switched to Qualichem 2 years ago...Haven't looked back.

Mark Rand · Jan 6, 2015

You'll probably have difficulty removing hardness from existing coolant. Was it originally made with tap water rather than DI water? If you only use DI water with the makeup coolant, It'll get better over time. If the underlying problem is too high a pH, then correcting the pH with acid would help.

Ox · Jan 6, 2015

Mark Rand said:
If the underlying problem is too high a pH, then correcting the pH with acid would help.

Maybe other coolants are different, but ours needs to go the other way.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Orange Vise · Jan 6, 2015

DI water is stripped clean of EVERYTHING, so any dissolved solids in your coolant is coming in externally. As brucecu mentioned, either the chips or the tank walls, or both, are contributing. Regardless of the reason, it's not exactly a problem that is unique to your shop, so I wouldn't focus too heavily on that problem unless you have piles of chips sitting in the tank.

There is no efficient way to remove dissolved solids from mixed coolant. Reverse osmosis and DI will filter out everything, including the coolant itself. You'll get clean(ish) water on the output end.

Every coolant formulation has strengths and weaknesses, and it appears that long sump life isn't a strong suit of the particular coolant you're using. Is it a soluble oil, semisynthetic, or synthetic?

specfab · Jan 6, 2015

I suspect that running the existing "problem" coolant through a DI tank will greatly shorten the life of the DI tank filtration medium. As Orange Vise notes, the filtration process will try to remove everything from the water, but I have no idea how a water-soluble lubricant/coolant will affect the active components in the DI tank. I suspect that the coolant will coat the media bed in the tank, and make it 100% useless in short order. If you choose that route, make sure you are ready to replace your DI cannister. If someone else has done this, it would be interesting to know.

If it is true that measurements of the DI tank output show good quality de-ionized water, your problem isn't with the water. Something else is happening over time. Is anyone else making the coolant solution in your shop, or maybe topping up the coolant tank with the garden hose connected to tap water? That would be my first guess.

Mtndew · Jan 6, 2015

Ox said:
I don't know how hard "hard" is

Imagine Kate Beckinsale drunk texting you wanting a booty call.
That's how hard "hard" is.

dksoba · Jan 6, 2015

Orange Vise said:
DI water is stripped clean of EVERYTHING, so any dissolved solids in your coolant is coming in externally. As brucecu mentioned, either the chips or the tank walls, or both, are contributing. Regardless of the reason, it's not exactly a problem that is unique to your shop, so I wouldn't focus too heavily on that problem unless you have piles of chips sitting in the tank.

There is no efficient way to remove dissolved solids from mixed coolant. Reverse osmosis and DI will filter out everything, including the coolant itself. You'll get clean(ish) water on the output end.

Every coolant formulation has strengths and weaknesses, and it appears that long sump life isn't a strong suit of the particular coolant you're using. Is it a soluble oil, semisynthetic, or synthetic?

Yes, I think it's probably from chips sitting in coolant too long. Don't have chips actually sitting in the tank, but there is occasionally chips in the bottom of the machine which is always wet when coolant is running.

My plan wasn't to run the coolant through the RO/DI system. My plan was to run it ONLY through the DI system, but something tells me this isn't such a good idea.

Long sump life meaning how long it can sit w/out being used? I've been using this coolant for 3 years w/out changing it out. I've been using DI water the entire time (except the initial fill, which I used distilled water since I only make DI water 5 gallons at a time. Think a 5 gallon bucket with a float valve.) A shop I used to work at has had his sump running for 6 years using blaser coolant. Originally the sump was Blaser Universal 2000 but now it's Blaser BC-935SW. I also run a keller coelscer on my machines w/way lube.

I guess I'm trying to solve a problem that isn't really a problem. What a dumb ass.

chip_maker · Jan 6, 2015

dksoba said:
The problem I was having (low PH and oil coming out of emulsion)

I call that the Blaser blues.

We used Blasocut 4000 strong for years and had the same problems, along with the black tar that stuff left everywhere.

We switched to Qualichem semi synthetic a few months ago, and I love the stuff. I can't say enough good things about it.

One of the things I like most about it is it doesn't stink like the blasocut. My wife was starting to think that I was spending time at the local brothel

.

brucecu · Jan 7, 2015

Dumbass????

dksoba said:
Yes, I think it's probably from chips sitting in coolant too long. Don't have chips actually sitting in the tank, but there is occasionally chips in the bottom of the machine which is always wet when coolant is running.

My plan wasn't to run the coolant through the RO/DI system. My plan was to run it ONLY through the DI system, but something tells me this isn't such a good idea.

Long sump life meaning how long it can sit w/out being used? I've been using this coolant for 3 years w/out changing it out. I've been using DI water the entire time (except the initial fill, which I used distilled water since I only make DI water 5 gallons at a time. Think a 5 gallon bucket with a float valve.) A shop I used to work at has had his sump running for 6 years using blaser coolant. Originally the sump was Blaser Universal 2000 but now it's Blaser BC-935SW. I also run a keller coelscer on my machines w/way lube.

I guess I'm trying to solve a problem that isn't really a problem. What a dumb ass.

Dumbass? I don't think so. You were smart enough to ask some questions first.

One thing to keep in mind with DI water. Pure water ( which DI water comes close to) is a very corrosive material. Virtually everything dissolves in it until an equilibrium is reached ( which is material specific). Thus, as soon as the DI water contacts a material (air included) it begins to lose purity. Fortunately, at normal temperatures the rate of dissolution of most "containers" found in a shop is low but over time, things like hardness, dissolved solids pH etc. will show changes. TDS in our coolant didn't become a problem until it exceeded 2500 ppm It manifested itself as rust appearing on vices and under chucks etc.

Ox · Jan 7, 2015

What is TDS?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

brucecu · Jan 7, 2015

Total Dissolved Solids. It is measured with a conductivity meter.

cnctoolcat · Jan 7, 2015

I used to use all the "premium" brands: Blaser, Hocut, Trim, Hangstefers, Castrol....

All of them had some type of issue that did not justify the premium price.

Since Qualichem has came along, nothing else compares. I use a semi-synthetic and NEVER have to change the sumps, no stink, no rust, no staining. Just top off the tanks as needed, and run parts. And some of my machines may set weeks without being used. Yes, I skim the oil off the top, and run fish-tank bubblers, both of which are common sense and mandatory for proper coolant maintenance.

Give Qualichem a try, it's "good juice" as my salesman Kirby likes to say.

ToolCat

Edster · Jan 7, 2015

I've got a few pails of Qualichem they graciously gave me to test, and so far it's looking a lot better than the other coolants I've used in the past.

MachEng · Jan 7, 2015

I have had the same problem with Spartan Maxim VHP. I kept having problem with the emulsion breaking. So I had them analyze the coolant. The said it was because of the water hardness so I cleaned the machines out. Recharged with DE-Ionized water even though in our area we have city water from reservoirs, which typically isn't real hard. I kept watch on concentration like a hawk, made sure we only used De-Ionized, kept the chips cleaned out, mix with electric drill, run skimmers, have aeration in tanks, use filter material on top of sump to keep fines from accumulating. Several weeks later same crap. Now they say maybe it's from rust preventative that we occasionally wipe off our tool holders with (not bathe them either). I am fed up with it. It is way too much work to strip everything down, clean, dispose and buy new coolant. If I was doing the old style job shop no maintenance deal I could understand it, but I follow all the rules and it fails. I have asked if plastics could be causing it. The answer I get is most likely no but I suspect they are wrong. I haven't had the issues in the lathe like I have had in the mills. The only thing I see that is different is machining a lot less plastics.
I am ready to try this Qualichem. Used Blasocut many years ago but had separation problems when the machine would sit.

MachEng · Jan 7, 2015

Forgot this too.
They told me it's because even though your water isn't hard over time the little bit continues to accumulate. The water evaporates but the minerals stay behind.
Makes sense but changing coolant once or twice year is excessive as far as I am concerned.
We do prototype and low production so we are removing tons of chips. It seems like the heavier you use the machine the less issues you have.

Removing "water hardness" from coolant

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