Looking for used VMC with some speed and versatility. What to look for?

Looking to replace an older VMC and not much in the budget so we just can't buy new. However, it would be pointless to buy something unreliable or that can't handle at least some steel. The primary issues right now are spindle speed, control speed, and tool change time. Machine will cut mostly Aluminum and plastics, but will certain get jobs running 4000 and SS steels. I don't think we need a gear box for this one as we have others that are decent steel hogs.


Kind of looking for something that is maybe a less well known line or at least less sought after anyway. Haas is just OUT. I just won't spend the same amount for a budget machine when I can get better built machine a few yrs older for the same price. We have some older Moris that continue to make perfect parts. would love a newer Mori but likely out of the budget.

5-10yrs old
10-12k spindle
20hp is fine
1400+ rapids
fast tool change
pallet changer a plus
fast control to handle HSM
approx 40-20-20 travels but may go bigger.

I don't think I am as concerned about "having close support" as some so lets not make that a non-issue

I am not quite sure if we want box way or guides. Guess it depends on finish quality and speed. I will say we would hold machined finish quality in the highest regard on this. We have a few parts that need to leave here as machined and they need to look nice. Need a rigid machine no matter what.

What's your budget? That makes a big difference. You might be better off near the low end of new rather than buying someone else's problem machine. If someone's selling something chances are it's not profitable for them for one reason or another.

I have a two year old Haas VF-3SS with a TR-160Y trunnion that we got with all the options (probing, HSM, 40+1 tool ATC, 15K RPM, 1000 PSI spindle coolant, etc.)for about $150k. I was against getting a Haas at the time, but it's proven itself to be a great machine for the money. They seem to have really stepped up their game in the past few years and solved a lot of the issues people were having with the older machines.

Oh I think budget might be between 30-70K. I think we mostly just want to hold until a good deal comes along. I know some say we can buy a new machine for that, but not a Mori. I think when we have looked at off brand machines in the past, it just didn't seem to make sense. I mean if we save 10k over a Haas, it is a fair bet that company won't be around in 10yrs and we will have zero resale value.

I don't want to get into a hot debate about Haas. They seem to be decent machines these days but their resale is just too strong. Lots of our parts are aesthetic parts that are delivered "as machined" and I have looked at identical parts coming off a new Haas SS and a Makino. The Haas parts were nice, but the Makino parts were just nicer. I also don't like how you have to add everything in on a Haas so we would b shopping for a machine with HSM, etc. Some things that are just built into the higher end machines.

Right now looking at Mazak, Okuma, Mori, and Matsuura.

Maybe I should be asking what to stay away from and for what reason?

1400 + on the rapids you will be looking at a guide way machine. Most of the box way ones are not going to move that fast.

you could get a used or floor model Brother S700 for that. It's no 20 hp and the travel is more like 32" but it's well suited for HSM. Just throwing it out there.

edge22 said:

1400 + on the rapids you will be looking at a guide way machine. Most of the box way ones are not going to move that fast.

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Except Kitamura.

riabma77 said:

Except Kitamura.

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I noticed that. Makes me want to ask the question of how long a bad fast box way machine might last? Would it even be smart to consider a used Kit due to the box way? Seems many machines have moved to guide rails. I realize rails on smaller machines is probably also a total due too the time plus parts expense to replace but I wonder which would last longer? We have a machine with box ways from the 90s and it still seems to be solid as a rock but also runs 1/4 of the rapid speeds of a Kitamura. More speed = more cycles on all the ways.

huleo said:

I noticed that. Makes me want to ask the question of how long a bad fast box way machine might last? Would it even be smart to consider a used Kit due to the box way? Seems many machines have moved to guide rails. I realize rails on smaller machines is probably also a total due too the time plus parts expense to replace but I wonder which would last longer? We have a machine with box ways from the 90s and it still seems to be solid as a rock but also runs 1/4 of the rapid speeds of a Kitamura. More speed = more cycles on all the ways.

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I'm not an expert in high-end machines, but several manufacturers (Okuma, Kitamura, etc...) offer box ways machines, and 'eco' lines with guide ways.

If you need a lot of rigidity, I would consider the Genos M460 / M560. I think you can find something used around $70K.

If you don't need a lot of rigidity, maybe you can get a brand new Speedio / Robodrill, with stupid crazy rapids and extreme reliability.

I think Kitamura box ways will last much longer than linear ways, especially if there are any crashes. If it loosens up a little just tighten the gibs. My 30 taper model has over 100,000 hours on it and no noticeable wear on the gibs. The downside is there are no gibs to adjust for head nod, you have to remove the clamps and either replace turcite or mill down some metal. If you go with a used one CHECK THE HEAD NOD/ CLAMP WEAR. This has bitten a few in the ass when buying used. Kind of like checking squareness on a linear way machine, one good crash and it's tweeked.
After having a well used Kitamura for over 4 years now I would add them to the list to look for. They are certainly well made, IMO.

Thanks. I think we are considering getting a little 30 taper machine next year for small stuff but right now we really need to get a basic 40 taper VMC to update another we have.

I am very interested in the Kitamuras but can find very little about them. Not exactly a "sexy" machine, but they seem to have good specs and DEADLY ratings on accuracy! We have a serious Okuma presence in this area and I am not opposed to them.

What does Mazak have? Don't have many around here but they seem to chase the BIG machine market and can't imagine they don't build good machines.

I was surprised that Mori does not have any "stand out" specs. Even their Z rapid, tool change, and accuracy seems to be typical of basic VMCs. I was even surprised that Makinos are not all that insane fast. I was, however, surprised to see that older Matsuura machines seem to COOK! Like 2300ipm rapids in a 30x16x20 machine. I have never heard anything negative about their products. I think they are a big player in the 5 axis HMC markets.

DavidScott said:

I think Kitamura box ways will last much longer than linear ways, especially if there are any crashes. If it loosens up a little just tighten the gibs. My 30 taper model has over 100,000 hours on it and no noticeable wear on the gibs. The downside is there are no gibs to adjust for head nod, you have to remove the clamps and either replace turcite or mill down some metal. If you go with a used one CHECK THE HEAD NOD WEAR.

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You gotta be kidding! With head nod being like the #1 issue with VMC way wear, you would think there would be better solution! Maybe if one doesn't have 100,000hrs???? that is a LOT off hours boss! You must be triple shifting!

huleo said:

You gotta be kidding! With head nod being like the #1 issue with VMC way wear, you would think there would be better solution! Maybe if one doesn't have 100,000hrs???? that is a LOT off hours boss! You must be triple shifting!

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I got it from a shop that ran 24/365 for 9 years, so doing the math not more than 80,000 hours, still it has a lot of hours on it. Yeah, I was surprised to find out no gibs for nod, just for sidewise comp like X & Y. Even with the bit of extra work to maintain it I still like box ways over rails for their ruggedness and stiffness. Agreed you shouldn't be crashing it but one decent crash and you can twist the head on a linear machine.

Kind of leaning towards Matsuura! I have questions though. I have not found one bit of literature on their accuracy. Not that I think it is bad, but the Kitamura seems (by the spec anyway) to be deadly accurate.

Both of those machines seem to be pretty darn compact and I bet both would make good machines. They both also seem to specialize in pallet changing on a VMC. That would be a big help. However, I would really like to climb on them because some parts we may need to see or watch run. The Kit uses a turn table in the front of the machine so getting to the parts is out of the question. The Suura Shuffles them out the side. Not sure which would be best really but in both cases, I just cannot get a 40-20-20 machine with APC. Would have to settle for around a 30-20-20. Maybe the pallets would make up for that.

It can be a tough call choosing a machine. Researching definitely helps, try to see how other machines do running your style of parts. In my shop we are Mori whores because that is what played out has nothing to do with it being a superior brand, we just love working with them. Nothing wrong with looking at all of the manufacturers. They all have something special. I would love to machine on a Mazak or a Matsuura and definitely a Grob! So many to choose from it’s tough. I like anything that cuts! lol! Good luck!


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Yeah, it can be a tough call and all seem to have their strong points. The universal question from everyone is "what kind of parts you run?" Uh, as a job shop, we run it all. I know we want the finish that a horizontal brings but I think any rigid vert machine can do that.

Right now we are looking at Kitamura, Matsuura, Makino, and maybe YCM. What has peaked our interest is the pallet changers BUT my concern with any pallet machine is hours. Those are typically bought for LOTS of running and I don't want to buy a problem child.

Kits - Maybe the 3X series. They have bad fast rapids, super accuracy specs, TC seems like it drags on for some reason but not bad, little smaller X travel than we would like, and though the rotating table design for an APC, it would remove the ability to get to the parts when running. Set up for full production.

Matsuura - ES800 maybe. Looks like the biggest offered with an APC. Side eject APC which I might like better. Speeds/feeds/TC look good. I can't find any specs to even know if these are rail or box way but probably a sure bet it doesn't matter as they all seem to perform. Like to learn more.

Makino - V55 or 56. still not quite 40" in X, side eject APC, BUT the kicker is that tool changer! WTF? Traveling X column going to the drum and appears to be substantially slower than a twin arm style. We change a lot of tools and 10sec tool changes bite into the clock!


I have looked at the Daewoo and Doosan lines. Seems to be well built but just not sure I want to step away from Jap iron! I don't even know if those two are the same or what? They have a pretty slick APC machine that looks well integrated but not sure on those machines.

Makino is well supported here BUT I have heard they like to make every single thing proprietary and NOTHING is cheap on them.

I have sort of excluded Mori and Okuma just because we got on the pallet changer idea and the Mori did not see to stand out with speed really and have heard some of their verts are not much better than cheaper iron.

I have not looked at Mazak too much yet. Know they make a good machine. Just was not blown away with the specs. BUT, I guess, the specs are not everything either.

I know I will NEVER get a dealer to talk candidly about used machines unless he has one. They want to sell new.

New owner machine registration can be something to know, and how good their phone tech support is. Kitamura doesn't have a registration fee and they offer free phone tech for the life of the machine, whether you are the original owner or not doesn't matter. I have used it on many occasions and can only speak well of it, really saved my ass a few times. Some MTBs won't even sell you parts unless you register it, Enshu, and one, perhaps Matsuura, charges $2500.

I would think Kitamura has one of the faster tool changes of side arm machines. You do need to pre-select the tool and it helps if you have the tool and pot drop down as you raise the head to the TC position.

Man, I can only bet how bad Makino is to deal with! They seem to hold their nose up a bit. I was hoping Matsuura was not that way.
Any other machines at that caliber, let me know!

Worth mentioning, though probably different now, I had a spindle drive issue many years ago on a Fanuc and dug into it. I got a board level tech from Fanuc on the phone and we actually concluded at a simple jumper had fallen off! I gave them big points in my book for that one!

I work for Doosan and the Doosan/Daewoo VMCs are rugged, well equipped and affordable. Fanuc or Mitsubishi CNC. Parts and support no problem, we back up our machines all the to the first CNC we made in '79. Phone support and training materials free of charge forever, whether you bought new or used, training classes free forever as long as the machine is on your floor. I should know, I'm the Training Coordinator and Applications Engineer.