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Replacing horizontal lathes with vertical

dn889312

Plastic
Joined
May 18, 2018
Hello, I am new to the forum and machining in general. I'm a manufacturing engineer and have spent most of my month here learning how to run the machines and getting an understanding of what is going on. So I am currently the engineer with the most machine shop knowledge. The machine shop here consists of ~10 Doosan 400/700s that have been purchased throughout the years. The process involves roughing and finishing stainless steel/nickel alloy billets up to 12" in diameter, weighing 100-500 lbs. Some of the older machines are due to be replaced, so I have been researching that. I have been looking into vertical lathes, as space is an issue here and capacity needs to expand. I have received a quote for a new Doosan V8300, but I don't know much about it yet as the quote was given before I started here. A Mazak salesman is coming in next week to discuss their options.

No one here knows much about these so I am hoping you guys can help me. What questions should I be asking? What differences should I expect from a VTC as opposed to the existing HTC? Any opinions on what brands of machines I should look into more?
 
......What differences should I expect from a VTC as opposed to the existing HTC?

Slugs like you describe are easy to load into a horizontal lathe. Couple slings and a hoist. Not so easy to safely load into a vertical lathe. Often requires some kind of device or mechanism. On the other side of the coin, once sitting on the chuck they are easier to deal with on the vertical.

Do you use the tailstock on these parts? If so, not many verticals have one.
 
I was hoping that loading into the vertical would be easier, but I hadn't really thought about how it would be done. Currently they are loaded in with a sling and hoist, but it is difficult to get it centered/level in the chuck. It takes a few minutes and hammer swings to get it centered properly.

The tailstock is used most of the time, when the parts are long enough. Does the vertical orientation not lessen the need for the tailstock?
 
I always pictured vertical lathes to be for fairly large stubby parts not needing a tailstock.
 
The parts are between 7 and 12" diameter, with a length from 5" to 20". The majority being ~10" diameter and 10-12" long.
 
So I am currently the engineer with the most machine shop knowledge.

Does the vertical orientation not lessen the need for the tailstock?

images


Gravity is almost never the impetus for employing the use of a tailstock in a turning center.
 
I was hoping that loading into the vertical would be easier, but I hadn't really thought about how it would be done. Currently they are loaded in with a sling and hoist, but it is difficult to get it centered/level in the chuck. It takes a few minutes and hammer swings to get it centered properly.

The tailstock is used most of the time, when the parts are long enough. Does the vertical orientation not lessen the need for the tailstock?

With bar material it is not considered safe to try to choke them with a couple slings near one end so as to hang in a vertical orientation. If the part has features that would prevent the slings from slipping off then you would be OK.

Once on the chuck in a vertical it is usually easier to deal with runout. Still involves shimming or jacking the part until it runs true enough for requirements.

If the the length to diameter ratio warrants a tailstock on a horizontal lathe you won't gain much in a vertical orientation. Cutting forces typically far exceed the gains that having the weight of the part helping hold the part in the chuck gives you. IME when you lose a part out of the chuck in a vertical lathe there is much more damage than what happens most of the time in a horizontal lathe.

Just keep some horizontal lathes around for those jobs or find a builder that offers a tailstock on their vertical lathe.
 
I work for Doosan. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me or call. Gravity is your friend on a vertical, up to a point. The sizes you stated should not be a problem in the V8300. Email me at the address below and I can send you some information.

Paul Anderson
Applications Engineer
Doosan Machine Tools America
973-618-2457
[email protected]
 
You don't mention discussions with the folks on the floor that run the current machines. Maybe you are involving them to some degree just not mentioned. My guess is they know the process better than anyone. I think it's best to get them involved in the decision too. The end result will likely have a much better chance of success.
 
[General rant coming on...] I don't mean this to be sarcastic, but how is it that from time to time, we see newly hired engineers with little shop experience, get put into these positions of operational management of a machine shop, and then get turned loose with purchasing expensive capital equipment & re-organizing then entire operations?

That in itself doesn't puzzle me nearly as much as questioning how a manufacturing/machining business arrived at that situation in the first place - no one left at the place with enough knowledge & experience to work through major projects like this. Or perhaps not giving the authority to the people that do..? [Rant off]



dn889312 welcome to the board. Please don't take the rant above as anything personal. You've come to the right place, and we're glad you're here.


Lots of good advise given here already. With regards to loading, when you look at machines, pay special attention to the doors, to see if they would allow easy loading with a crane. If the doors open allowing easy access to the work zone with a crane, then consider a magnet for actually lifting the parts. As long as they're used safely, lifting magnets are worth their weight in gold - even on horizontal lathes.

I don't have any first-hand experience with vertical lathes, but on shorter length:diameter parts, they will almost certainly be more "ergonomic" for lack of better terms than a horizontal. Once the parts get longer, you really need a tailstock for stability's sake, so it's hard to beat a horizontal lathe there.

Also good to consult with the operators/machinists using the equipment, and familiar with the work. They'll certainly be able to offer some insight into the jobs. But, involving them in part of the process will also help build cooperation, instead of resentment after the purchase. Let them tell you what they like/dislike, want/don't want, and things will go better. If they're a part of the process, it's much more difficult for them to blame the machinery later when they were a big factor in choosing the equipment. That can be a big, big deal in some companies, especially those with predominantly older workers, and/or union facilities.
 
...... With regards to loading, when you look at machines, pay special attention to the doors, to see if they would allow easy loading with a crane. If the doors open allowing easy access to the work zone with a crane, then consider a magnet for actually lifting the parts.


Since he mentioned Stainless or Nickel alloys, he might be S.O.L. on using a magnet for at least some of his parts?

PM
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! Yeah I'm in over my head, and there has been a lot to learn. I was hired because I have some cnc programming experience - but for milling circuit boards. I have been talking to the machine operators about pretty much everything I've been researching, we have a pretty good relationship since I spent a few weeks working with them, training to be a machine operator. Unfortunately no one seems to have used a vertical lathe, so it's been difficult to get much feedback. Fortunately there is no immediate need for this to be figured out.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! Yeah I'm in over my head, and there has been a lot to learn. I was hired because I have some cnc programming experience - but for milling circuit boards. I have been talking to the machine operators about pretty much everything I've been researching, we have a pretty good relationship since I spent a few weeks working with them, training to be a machine operator. Unfortunately no one seems to have used a vertical lathe, so it's been difficult to get much feedback. Fortunately there is no immediate need for this to be figured out.

You never mentioned the type of ops required to turn the part, not that you should in a public forum. Verticals can be awesome if they are applied to the correct part and the money was spent on proper work holding with automated loading and unloading.

If you are turning an ID bore you do not want to use a machine with the spindle mounted in the base. These parts require a top mounted spindle. This also means you will be needing a custom work holding system. $$$. This is fine if you have lots of identical or at least similar enough parts to allow holding the part with a common chucking system.



All of this takes a lot of thought and planning to get it to work well. Any mistakes will be very costly.

One thing I would suggest is that you might want this to be a turn key project. Price for the machine and functioning work holding from one supplier and only one check to write. Why I say this is that I have seen plenty of persons in your situation and experience level that purchase a new machine and do not have the budget or knowledge to finish the project properly. All they ended up with was a shiny new machine that does not perform as well as the old system. The operators are mad, the owner is mad, and you are stuck trying to make something work that will never function as hoped for and it will be your fault.



Vertical spindle lathes are assume for the proper application with the right work holding and the correct loading/unloading system.

The vertical spindle lathes with the spindle mounted in the machine base work well for turning ODs but doing boring work on them is a challenge in that all you have for chip removal is high pressure coolant. If your part is OD only, then you can get by with a base mounted spindle. These can use a hoist or crane from the top and does allow for relatively inexpensive automated loading and unloading.

For parts that have ID boring, the top mounted spindles work better as gravity does the majority of the chip removal but these machines tend to cost more as the part loading and unloading is usually fully automated. The part holding is also more expensive and specialized.

I would caution you on putting too much importance in floor space savings being this is a double edged sword. The floor space saved is wonderful if the actual machine works better than the horizontal lathe. If it does not you have a loose-loose situation.

Depending on your part configuration, you might be just as well off using a conventional horizontal lathe with some well designed loading and unloading fixturing. This all gets back to the OPs needed to do a part and the part variation. These are all of the things you must figure out.

One final comment about the machine tool dealers and this comes after much experience making capital equipment purchases. The good dealers are usually very knowledgeable about the machines they sell and often have some good insight into how to do things. The thing you need top keep in mind is that their bottom line goal is to get you to buy their machine.

The problem is that the good and bad dealers both have the same ultimate goal, to sell you a machine. The good dealers want you as a customer to flourish and buy more machines from them. The bad dealers don't think that far out. They just want this sale.

The trouble comes in getting the machine to make your part and none of the effort from the dealer to make your application work comes cheap. It is easy to get a low price for a machine delivered to your floor. It is another thing entirely to get the low priced machine to make your part. Often, the moderately higher priced machine with the needed dealer support included in the purchase price package will ultimately be the best buy.

Not trying to pick on dealers as the customer is usually the issue but keep in mind the limits of your experience and knowledge. In these situations, keep the end project cost and goal in mind. There is no cheap or easy way to get there.
 
......The vertical spindle lathes with the spindle mounted in the machine base work well for turning ODs but doing boring work on them is a challenge in that all you have for chip removal is high pressure coolant.

Only true if blind boring or working in some material that is really tough to break chips. With thru bores and any reasonable chipbreaking cutting condition, bores are no problem at all.
 








 
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