Glen, I'd agree with Matt, make Chris and Bruce earn your business. Send the program file and NDA, let them work their magic and come down here and watch it make parts. If you are after the ultra fast cycles, I think this would be a good way to go. Ask Chris about service and installation too, I believe he has a plan that may benefit you.
Heck, I'll pick you up and run you over there so you are not held captive!!!
Last edited by SteveinAZ; 10-25-2009 at 04:31 PM.
Originally Posted by Seekins
bug em, they love it.
24k is great for small tools. We have loads of customers making parts very quickly in AL on 24K machines. Remember to buy good holders. Big Plus for parts that are going to push the machine. balance your holders that run 15K and above. I think you will find these little machines make you a boat load of $. Bullet proof ATC, super fast, loaded Fanuc control, tapping at 8K, 0-24K in .7 seconds, peck tapping, high speed reverse tapping... I would get the large table version of the machine. Cost per performance, nothing compares to these little Robodrills. Fanuc literally tests all of their new functions on the Robodrill, (Tool tip center point control, AI nano smoothing, AICC... the Robodrill gets em before anyone)
For cutting small AL parts, with fast cycle times, your going to push the machine less with less deep cuts, keep the chip load light and go 4 times as fast. What counts is how many parts are in the bucket at the end of the day... This is were the Robodrill excels.
Let Chris and Bruce prove it to you. Come on down and take a look. You wont be disappointed. Never know may take more goodies home with you once you visit the MMT toy store.
Originally Posted by vmcman
Glen, careful what you wish for...you could end up with this one on your floor, I think Chris would have it on a truck and on your floor in 48 hours!
I will admit, i would be half way scared to go into that showroom....For some reason i have a thing for Mori's or i might be in real trouble..
I am working on a couple dummy parts at the molment. When they are done, i will send them to bruce so he can show me.
What do i need to balance tools? The holders are balanced for 20k and the big plus to 40k. Never played with, nor wanted to play with balancing tools.
When the cnc service guys were in the shop setting up my mori, same guys that set up all the new haas equip around here. they could hear the haas spindle whining and said. Hey, you need to balance that tool! No wonder you are having spindle issues...Problem was, there was no tool in the spindle!!!...Had a new spindle installed the next week..
For small tools, 24K rules.
A job that I have run a lot of, 1/4" 3flute Zirconium coated cutter. .140" DOC Full width of cut, 24K RPM 250 IPM. 6061 Al. I don't know if it will push harder than that, I started to simply run parts, and not do so much "experimentation" since all the material for that job belongs to the customer.
For the holes, I use a 3/16" em, 24K spiral to the bottom .28" deep ( 1/4" material) and orbit the hole. Programmed speed is 180 IPM, I have no way to find out how fast the control actually moves the part.
It blows out 30 holes in about 29 seconds, and after 10's of thousands of parts, there is no need to move any offsets, and the holes pin out the same.
Every visitor to the shop is blown away from watching it run. It punches holes in that 1/4" Al like a punch press. And ironically, it took the job away from a punch press!
It runs it faster and Much more accurate than the punch press could Ever do it.
Don't let the sales guy get away without proving anything.
The Turbo chip conveyor is USELESS for fine chips from a 3/16" or 1/8" end mill. The angle is too steep for the chips to climb, so they simply tumble in a circle at the point where it goes up. This lets them fall through the holes in the belt, and you need to scoop the chips out of the screen about twice an hour. Nearly as much work as not having a conveyor.
Also, the chips stick to the conveyor like glue, being so small. You cannot run it without the "Air Header" to blow the chips off of the conveyor. But, that eats air like crazy.
I added an M Code to turn the conveyor on and off or it would double it's operating cost with air consumption.
The Mist collector is an absolute must, and included with the spindle upgrade.
The Losma unit I have does not recover ANY water, but does cut down the mist a bit.
I saw the demo booth at IMTS, they unit they had set up was recovering a steady stream of coolant, but mine never has. No one knows why.
Again, running at 24K it uses up about 10-15 gallons in a 10 hour shift.
WHY they put that small of a coolant tank on there with that sort of coolant consumption is a complete mystery to me.
I was at IMTS and looked at the Brother, and the Robodrill, back and forth.
Opening up the cabinets and looking at them both was quite revealing.
The brother had what looked like a PC motherboard in it IIRC, and wiring in tie wraps.
The Brother at IMTS had a 5'th axis unit installed, and the drivers for the extra axis looked like they were simply added in and wired up.
The Robodrill was quite a contrast in terms of wiring and build quality. YMMV.
I can't say enough about the basic Robodrill, it is just amazing....
The accessories may not work with your job, such as the Turbo chip conveyor, and the mist collector, etc.
At IMTS, I talked to Jorgensen about a conveyor for a Robodrill, and they told me they certainly could do it.
I have ran the same job on the Cincinnati's with the Jorgensen drag type conveyor, and I can't tell you just Perfectly it works on the same job with the same small chips.
WHY, WHY, WHY do they not offer that as an option??????????
On the Cincinnati's I used Through Spindle Coolant. It pressurized the ER collets, and Blew the chips OUT of the cutting zone.
So, TSC seemed like the way to go on the Robodrill too.. WRONG.
The TSC pump they supplied was only rated for about 2 GPM, and could barely trickle coolant through an ER16 collet. That was with gaps in the collet of about .012"
It was OK for a small coolant fed drill, but completely useless for pressurizing a collet like I do on the Cincinnati's.
I was able to get a Renishaw tool probe off of ebay for under $400 new.
I wrote a macro to probe the tools. Worth EVERY penny! I end up setting up jobs all the time, so the time it takes me to switch over is saved several times a day.
The long table will be welcome with the DDR on it. I don't have the DDR, but I've seen them at IMTS, and on youtube.
Another thought about the Max vs continuous HSP ratings. Most parts I end up with the spindle never runs on one cut for more than a few seconds. Many parts have a cycle time of under 30 seconds.
The front door is interlocked, and I know of no way to defeat it. Even for setups.
Unfortunately it goes COMPLETELY opaque in a few days after being replaced. For setups, I have to take the side panel off, and reach around the edge to run the hand wheel while leaning in to see the edge finder.
Can ANYONE convince me that that is safer than not being able to open the front door for a setup, and not being able to see absolutely anything through the front window?
For anything bigger than 3/8" the dual contact tool holder might be the definite way to go.
Bottom line that little machine will blow away two Haas machines. Not even a contest!
But watch the accessories, like the TSC, the chip conveyor, and the mist collector.
The Brother I looked at came with a 10K spindle, and to upgrade to a 16K spindle, was a dealer supplied "parts kit" where they would add lube upgrades, and swap out the spindle motor, and drives... 16K was the max possible. 24K is 1.5X faster. 1.5X more profit IMHO.
It (Brother) just seemed like a massive afterthought. Again, that was my impression seeing it at IMTS, especially after looking inside the control cabinets of both machines.
that's the kind of feedback i was hoping for. Real use type stuff...
The chips from a 1/4em come out ok? I will almost exclusivly use 1/4-3/8 and 1/2em's. Have you ran any cutters larger than 1/4"? I will get big plus for them. How about balancing?
That sucks about the door lock. maybe there will be a stipulation in my purchase..or three.
I have some parts that start off as extrusions and will be patterns cut out .15 thru the material. Sounds like a winner for those parts.
Other part has some pockets that are .4" deep and i can use up to a 1/2"em for them. If i truly can cut .15" deep at even 400ipm it will blow what i am doing now out of the water for sure!
If this will blow 2 Haas machines out of the water then that's exactly what i want...standard or SS machines?
How is the bottom surface finish when switching directions in a pocket or facing with a smaller EM?
If you're roughing at high feed, the bottom will obviously be whatever the feed/tooth is.
I posted on another thread that the finishes are better than our other machines. I think this is a combination of direct drive (so no belt vibration), good quality spindle bearings, and also good quality ways and obviously alpha (higher resolution) drives.
The parts look 'shiny' compared to the other machines, even with the same cutters/program/coolant.
One thing about the ddr. Do you need it compared to a 'standard' 4th axis?
If you're doing lots and lots of indexes (5 degrees a time back and forth etc) then yes.
If you're doing a straight 90 index and then again to get the job off in one go, is the extra bucks worth it?
What you will soon realise, is that the machine demands your attention more than you'd be used to.
What used to take 1/2 hr now takes say 20 minutes. The faster you speed it up, the more you have to feed it.
Just saying that when you're a small company, it's not always about cycle time, but it's work flow.
It's better to have 3x machines running than standing feeding 1x all day.
As 3t3d advised when I was thinking of one:- 'You'll love it'.
Wise words Pete and I have absolutely no regrets.
Seekins, did you look at the Mori Seiki Accumill?
Did you sell the Haas yet?
The new model 260iB Fanuc DDR is very, very quick.
haven't sold the Haas yet, but i have high hopes...I will load it for you for free
haven't seen THAT mori, will definitely be getting some numbers on it today. Wonder why Ellison didn't mention it when i was getting other quotes from them? Mori's website sucks...
I definitely want a DDR 4th. Its not that much more and i index one part 23 times..
The DDR was not available when I bought mine.
The motor/drive and 4'th option was $7500 alone. Add in the cost of a 4th axis and the DDR starts to look like a bargain.
I'd call Jorgensen about a drag type conveyor, just like they used to put under the Cincinnati's. I was Just cleaning out chips, and trying to make them go up the conveyor.
The Jorgensens work so perfect.
Adding onto this - We at MMT cant control what a distributor sells. We try... but *sigh*
Originally Posted by 3t3d
We always always always ask the customer to consider the Barnes system we offer for the Robodrill on 24K machines. A standard conveyor will not work with fines.
As to the balanced holder question, if you buy prebalanced holders, you will be fine. It drives me nuts to see guys with nonballenced endmill holders, running 24K complaining about surface finish.
I wont own another machine that doesnt get its own chips out. All i want to do is dump chip bins while its running.
Maybe i can get MMT to add a Jorgensen conveyor in instead of theirs. I just spoke to Jorgensen and they said not a problem. he is sending me over a blank drawing. I need to figure out how much material volume needs to be moved. Any idea of how much chips one of these will make in a shift? Need Cubic inches Also have them looking at something for the duravertical.
DDR 4th's seem to be catching on. Mori has one now too. Cost wise, about 3-4k more than a quality regular setup.
We will know what the bank has to say today. and figure out if i can unload this haas. Might be taking a trip to the MMT toy store this week...
Isn't that setup crazy?
Originally Posted by Limy Sami
I look at the old video we shot of the previous model versus the new one, and it's amazing what kind of progress they are making with these small direct drive motors.
Limy Sami, where are you located exactly? I can see what is in your area... Drop me a PM if you like.
Originally Posted by Limy Sami
Thats it Sami, you've done it now. Get your wallet out
Does one tend to make everything that goes between the heads on the DDR? I mean is it your own job to come up with what gets attached in there, or are there standard fixtures attached to them, and you just make plates that go there (as shown in your video?) If it was easy to mount up different fixtures between centers, then this is something I may need to look at closer.