Selecting a Personal CNC

Hello everyone,
First time posting, so thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I'm torn on what to do, My company purchased a couple of CNC Mills(haas) to do our production parts, originally the plan was to prototype and then do production but as the company has grown it has become tough to get the prototyping in the mix. A lot of our prototyping can be computer simulated but the final product must be produced to get the actual real world results and bugs worked out.

Anyway I'm seriously considering purchasing a smaller CNC just to house in the engineering office, we have a 3D printer but it is only good for small parts and can only go for fit and feel and not actually be used as a prototype. We really don't have the room for a larger machine but I would like to be able to run a part that is 30" X axis, 15" Y axis and 10" Z height. They are not firm but looking at future parts. The size average part height currently not including fixtures is about 2.5"

I currently use Autocad and Autodesk inventor for part design and assembly. I'm currently intrigued by Autodesk Inventor HSM add-on since it is a CAM program that should be easy for me to transition to because of my inventor environment background. Normally I pass the files and drawing on to the machinist and they produce the G-code etc. this machine I will be doing it all.

Once again it is a prototype machine so not wanting to run production on it but would like something easy to operate to a point.

So here is my question what direction should I be looking in? and has anyone else been in my shoes and found something that worked out that is some what cost effective?

Are the Knee Mill CNC really worth it? Can they do what I want and work with my Software?

The tormach PCNC looks as if the X will not have enough travel. Is there a machine that is in between this CNC and a Larger one such as a haas VF4ss, that can do the travel needed?

Ok I hope I explained myself enough and hopefully I'm not the first person to have been in this situation, and some one has a good solution to offer in the direction to go.

Thank you again,
Kyle

Look at ROBODRILL Modell Alpha D21LiA5, and Bother Speedo S700X1 first if you have the budget but they will only get you 27.5 inches in x. Middle range Haas TMP-1.
If you can do without a tool changer Haas TM-1. Then without a tool changer or guards Kent USA KTM-3VKF CNC Knee Mill With MillPwr 2/3 | Kent USA and TRAK DPM SX5P - Southwestern Industries, Inc.

If you can accept 20 inches travel in x there are a lot more choices.

Kyle, update your personal info to where you live.

knull said:

Hello everyone,
First time posting, so thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I'm torn on what to do, My company purchased a couple of CNC Mills(haas) to do our production parts, originally the plan was to prototype and then do production but as the company has grown it has become tough to get the prototyping in the mix. A lot of our prototyping can be computer simulated but the final product must be produced to get the actual real world results and bugs worked out.

Anyway I'm seriously considering purchasing a smaller CNC just to house in the engineering office, we have a 3D printer but it is only good for small parts and can only go for fit and feel and not actually be used as a prototype. We really don't have the room for a larger machine but I would like to be able to run a part that is 30" X axis, 15" Y axis and 10" Z height. They are not firm but looking at future parts. The size average part height currently not including fixtures is about 2.5"

I currently use Autocad and Autodesk inventor for part design and assembly. I'm currently intrigued by Autodesk Inventor HSM add-on since it is a CAM program that should be easy for me to transition to because of my inventor environment background. Normally I pass the files and drawing on to the machinist and they produce the G-code etc. this machine I will be doing it all.

Once again it is a prototype machine so not wanting to run production on it but would like something easy to operate to a point.

So here is my question what direction should I be looking in? and has anyone else been in my shoes and found something that worked out that is some what cost effective?

Are the Knee Mill CNC really worth it? Can they do what I want and work with my Software?

The tormach PCNC looks as if the X will not have enough travel. Is there a machine that is in between this CNC and a Larger one such as a haas VF4ss, that can do the travel needed?

Ok I hope I explained myself enough and hopefully I'm not the first person to have been in this situation, and some one has a good solution to offer in the direction to go.

Thank you again,
Kyle

Click to expand...

.
any cnc can do prototype work. some machinist prefer a Prototrak because it can be used as a manual
machine and they can feel whats going on as they turn the manual handles. horsepower wise they
might only be 1.5 to 3 hp. they also can do 2 or 3 axis cnc work. they are easy to program at the
machine
........ i have also used a 20hp Mazak cnc mill and a feature it had is AFC or automatic feed control.
you could set a tool for a certain spindle load and Z axis thrust so if a overload occurs the feed
is automatically reduced. if a 50% reduction in feed does not stop overload after 5 seconds the
feed will totally stop. it is a safety thing
....... i have used a 40 hp cnc mill that could break a 2" diameter end mill like it was nothing.
in handle mode you can move machine slowly but it is a electronic dial. there is no feedback. you
can put tons of force on a part and never even know it til something breaks.
....... now raw horsepower can remove a lot of metal faster. if you have a 20 hp machine you
literally can go 10x faster than a 2 hp machine for many roughing operations. also many smaller
machines literally are not very rigid. many might have a 2 hp motor but if anything much more
than 1 hp is used they will chatter and or vibrate so hard that they will destroy tools like end mills
that on a bigger machine would run ok

Used Robodrill or Brother for around the same money as a Tormach will run you, but with about 500% more capability.

Also, be prepared to hate the Haas machines you currently produce with...

knull said:

Hello everyone,
First time posting, so thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I'm torn on what to do, My company purchased a couple of CNC Mills(haas) to do our production parts, originally the plan was to prototype and then do production but as the company has grown it has become tough to get the prototyping in the mix. A lot of our prototyping can be computer simulated but the final product must be produced to get the actual real world results and bugs worked out.

Anyway I'm seriously considering purchasing a smaller CNC just to house in the engineering office, we have a 3D printer but it is only good for small parts and can only go for fit and feel and not actually be used as a prototype. We really don't have the room for a larger machine but I would like to be able to run a part that is 30" X axis, 15" Y axis and 10" Z height. They are not firm but looking at future parts. The size average part height currently not including fixtures is about 2.5"

I currently use Autocad and Autodesk inventor for part design and assembly. I'm currently intrigued by Autodesk Inventor HSM add-on since it is a CAM program that should be easy for me to transition to because of my inventor environment background. Normally I pass the files and drawing on to the machinist and they produce the G-code etc. this machine I will be doing it all.

Once again it is a prototype machine so not wanting to run production on it but would like something easy to operate to a point.

So here is my question what direction should I be looking in? and has anyone else been in my shoes and found something that worked out that is some what cost effective?

Are the Knee Mill CNC really worth it? Can they do what I want and work with my Software?

The tormach PCNC looks as if the X will not have enough travel. Is there a machine that is in between this CNC and a Larger one such as a haas VF4ss, that can do the travel needed?

Ok I hope I explained myself enough and hopefully I'm not the first person to have been in this situation, and some one has a good solution to offer in the direction to go.

Thank you again,
Kyle

Click to expand...

Kyle,

I have a TM-2 that I do what you are looking to do on. You might just see if the shop will upgrade to a Brother or something and give you their HAAS.

I learned on my TM-2.....drooling over something like a brother now.

Tim

I have a Brother S700X, which is a fantastic machine.

I'm at a bit of a loss what makes it a good... prototype... machine though. It isn't particularly small, it isn't particularly light, it is certainly not particularly inexpensive. The control is fine but no friendlier than average (not counting usability abominations like Fanuc.)

I mean, really, someone is trying to decide between a Speedio and a Tormach?

knull said:

Hello everyone,
First time posting, so thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

I'm torn on what to do, My company purchased a couple of CNC Mills(haas) to do our production parts, originally the plan was to prototype and then do production but as the company has grown it has become tough to get the prototyping in the mix. A lot of our prototyping can be computer simulated but the final product must be produced to get the actual real world results and bugs worked out.

Anyway I'm seriously considering purchasing a smaller CNC just to house in the engineering office, we have a 3D printer but it is only good for small parts and can only go for fit and feel and not actually be used as a prototype. We really don't have the room for a larger machine but I would like to be able to run a part that is 30" X axis, 15" Y axis and 10" Z height. They are not firm but looking at future parts. The size average part height currently not including fixtures is about 2.5"

I currently use Autocad and Autodesk inventor for part design and assembly. I'm currently intrigued by Autodesk Inventor HSM add-on since it is a CAM program that should be easy for me to transition to because of my inventor environment background. Normally I pass the files and drawing on to the machinist and they produce the G-code etc. this machine I will be doing it all.

Once again it is a prototype machine so not wanting to run production on it but would like something easy to operate to a point.

So here is my question what direction should I be looking in? and has anyone else been in my shoes and found something that worked out that is some what cost effective?

Are the Knee Mill CNC really worth it? Can they do what I want and work with my Software?

The tormach PCNC looks as if the X will not have enough travel. Is there a machine that is in between this CNC and a Larger one such as a haas VF4ss, that can do the travel needed?

Ok I hope I explained myself enough and hopefully I'm not the first person to have been in this situation, and some one has a good solution to offer in the direction to go.

Thank you again,
Kyle

Click to expand...

Do you know how to program and operate a cnc yourself?

Thanks for the responses, Profile is updated. Also I think maybe I didn't give enough or the right info, so let me clean it up a bit.
Yes I understand all CNC can do prototype work, so what I meant by that statement is since I'm not doing production, I do not require it be the fastest time saving production machine, I also meant that I'm willing to chance the tools out myself as I would be with in close quarters of it at all times during the prototype stage, but I'm not opposed to a tool changer if it can be budgeted. I'm thinking closed system would be best but I could at the least create my own shield or contained area for the machine so it not a deal breaker to be open.

I also when I mentioned easy to use, I mostly meant standard English instructions and standard controlling software.

I noticed no one even mentioned the Retrofitted Knee Mill style other than the kent so I'm almost positive the others are not even in the same league as the machines mentioned here.

anyone have a rough price estimate of the TRAK DPM SX5P and the Kent USA KTM-3VKF CNC Knee Mill? I don't need to exact penny just a rough idea.

Thanks again and look forward to seeing what you guys think.
thanks,
Kyle

Automatic Tool Changer,Automatic Tool Changer,Automatic Tool Changer,Automatic Tool Changer, and one more time,Automatic Tool Changer!
I have personal cnc machines with manual tool change and 4 at work with the same.
Stay away from the low hanging fruit of the Kent, Prototrack, EZTrak.
Beg, borrow, steal, or hire a hooker for the boss, but get an ATC.
i_r_

For prototyping, sacrifice horsepower for higher spindle rpm. 15K+ rpms.

I R can you make a suggestion on what machine?
kn

Hurco!

http://www.hurco.com/en-us/cnc-machine-tools/machining-centers/vertical/Pages/General-Purpose.aspx

You need to consider the workflow and how the firm gets its best return on investment before deciding on the most appropriate machine.

One extreme is to get "same as the production guys are using". Main arguments in favour are that it gives a direct transfer from prototype to production so you know that what you get is what the production people will get. Can also be used to prove out and manufacture product specific work holding et al all ready to go on the production machines. If you are an expanding company it could also pick up overload production work easing the transition for when another machine needs to be got. Its a lot easier to finance a new production floor machine when the bought and (at least partially) paid for prototype machine has been able to handle a decent porportion of the work the new machine will be doing before being overloaded. Disadvantage is cost and space although some savings may be possible by de-specification as compared to a production optimised machine.

Other extreme is the retrofitted knee mill and similar manual tool change CNC machines (we need a new name, my view is that in 2014 CNC isn't CNC without a tool changer as the whole operation and work flow is so different). Obviously everything is far slower and all you get is part geometry and function verification. Programs will have to be re-set for the production machines. Ideally it should be just a straight transfer with tool change routines etc inserted but this may not be the case if you go for minimum cost where pretty much everything is different. Some of the import retrofit packages are very attractively priced e.g. in the UK Adtech claim to offer a Bridgeport retrofit CNC package under £5,000 (ish) allegedly running bog standard G code so a new import so fitted ought to be silly cheap. Whether is good enough being a whole nuther matter. What you really really don't want is "nearly the same" with horrid little traps to sometimes catch you out. Relatively slow operation is no great worry, actually its almost an advantage, if you plan to go away and do other things with your engineering hat on whilst the beast is chomping away. This assumes that there is no massive time pressure on prototype completion so spindle idle time mid job doesn't matter much. No good if you plan to stand and watch it. Engineer rates plus slow machine makes for a 'kin expensive operator.

If you plan to stand and watch you need fast or your management accountant will be on your case. However you look at it that makes for an expensive machine so extra costs from being different to the production machines are even harder to justify.

How important are the full axis travels? If only needed occasionally, and especially if only on part of a prototype which can be transferrred to a smaller machine for finishing off, consider making arrangements to offload the large job to the production shop. Maybe on an overtime basis. Certainly seems that going a bit smaller could make a useful difference in machine cost.

Clive

Knull,
Last time I spec-ed a machine was the mid 90's when I was an M.E., so I haven't kept up with the new and shiny. Several very sharp people have recommended the Brother or RoboDrill. I have a 4 axis cnc mill at home and work. Don't use the 4th axis very often, but it does come in handy now and then.
Clive has some relative points in his post.
have fun
i_r_

gkoenig said:

Used Robodrill or Brother for around the same money as a Tormach will run you, but with about 500% more capability.

Click to expand...

That would be a pretty old Robodrill to match the price of a new Tormach. Even in the older 10 tool Robodrills it would take around $18,000 to get a nice clean one that doesn't need any work. Once you get to 14 tool turret Robodrills (starting in 1998 I think), figure at least $25,000 to get a nice one.

knull said:

Thanks for the responses, Profile is updated.

Click to expand...

Type "Birmingham" at weather.com and you'll see how meaningless that is. We don't even know what country you are in, much less the state (if USA)

I agree about having the ATC, because when you step up from using a mill with an ATC (or manual TC), to a mill that has it, you really hate to go back.

Most knee mill retrofits have an issue with usable Z depth, because they use quill travel for the Z, and that is often only about 5 or 6 inches of travel. This becomes a major headache to deal with as you have to worry about where the tool change will take place (might not be room over the part), or even having room to switch from a spot drill to a standard HSS drill held in a chuck. To some extent this can be overcome with special stubby adapters (drill sleeves) and such, or, extra long holders for endmills and small drills and taps, so that they are near the same length as your longest drill. This is one PITA. Another is actually remembering to switch tools in proper order. If you have a program that reuses a tool twice, that can really screw up your memory of what goes in next.

You need a modern VMC, don't bother with anything else. Prototyping should be fast, you want all your tools setup and loaded in the machine and flexible work holding - which a 4th axis is nice for.

If the rest of the shop in on Haas and you need those travels you listed how about a VF2? Otherwise a Super Mini Mill 2.

I second a VF2. keep the programming languages and post processors the same.

knull said:

Thanks for the responses, Profile is updated. Also I think maybe I didn't give enough or the right info, so let me clean it up a bit.
Yes I understand all CNC can do prototype work, so what I meant by that statement is since I'm not doing production, I do not require it be the fastest time saving production machine, I also meant that I'm willing to chance the tools out myself as I would be with in close quarters of it at all times during the prototype stage, but I'm not opposed to a tool changer if it can be budgeted. I'm thinking closed system would be best but I could at the least create my own shield or contained area for the machine so it not a deal breaker to be open.

I also when I mentioned easy to use, I mostly meant standard English instructions and standard controlling software.



anyone have a rough price estimate of the TRAK DPM SX5P and the Kent USA KTM-3VKF CNC Knee Mill?
thanks,
Kyle

Click to expand...

The Kent is about 28 to 30K. I 'think' the Traks are around 36 or 38k. I agree with everyone about a tool changer, so if you can champion the more expensive machines do so. The HAAS's (VF2) and Hurco's (VM20i) are the next range in upper end...then it's to the big boys toys which I assume we are not talking about.

A couple of points to consider. If you are already running HAAS controls and tooling in the main shop it's mostly likely a better option for your company to buy the VF2 for the engineering group. Because cost wise, you most likely have near all the tooling needed so your going to save 15K or so there. Further, it's a known entity with service and so forth. Management may be more open to that if your shooting for the ATC machine. Also an enclosed machine is less messy and usually quieter.

However, as someone who has written justifications for this kind of thing you may need a fall back machine if they say no. So there
is the problem and here are other thoughts:

First, if this is a end of the year thing your already screwed unless you can find a dealer with the machine on the floor as you will not get delivery in time.

Second, you should never put in the option two machine in your justification request. Because 99% of the time you will get that second option! So don't mention the optional. Keep it on the back burner and hope you don't have to present it.

Third, It's still all about ROI (return on investment), even in engineering. So word your request carefully in this area. Three years with a last year and a half acceleration curve on ROI to coincide with the current companies growth prediction. The CFO's minions can be a good source for this info.

Fourth, which you may not like or want to consider this but promoting the machine to do some of the routine simple repeat work while it's not being used for engineering is a good justification. (think parts you do that allow quick fixture with good unattended runs) when the shop is busy and needs backup help. With respect to this make sure the engineering manger is the one who OK's this use...

A final note, I understand that your limiting factor may be what management maybe willing to spend toward something like this. In some companies, 20 to just under 40K are the magic numbers... in others it's higher. Finding out WHO has to sign off on the expense sometimes is the key. Example, a 39k and under machine may be approved locally but a 65k basic HAAS VF2 or higher may need to go to corporate. Much harder to get approved, so knowing your corporate process can/may be the key to knowing just what you can ask for.

Good luck