silly chuck mounting question

landslide · Feb 17, 2018

I bought an old kitagawa 6" chuck and when I went to mount it I found it had 7/16-14 bolts instead of the M10 the current b206 uses. The chucks holes are slightly over 12mm. to make matters worse it isn't mounted to a taper just a 5mm plain sholder.

Am i asking for trouble using 10mm bolts with it?

Danny VanVoorn · Feb 17, 2018

I am not getting something here? Does your machine have an A type spindle with a short taper for a locator and the chuck is not made for that? If so, I wouldn't dream of using it on that machine!
Dan

landslide · Feb 18, 2018

Danny VanVoorn said:
I am not getting something here? Does your machine have an A type spindle with a short taper for a locator and the chuck is not made for that? If so, I wouldn't dream of using it on that machine!
Dan

A type bolt paterns and plain backs are std for the kitagawa range. my manual shows all chucks driectly mounting without a taper.

thermite said:
That sounds like "better", not worse. Plain back chuck, 5mm deep "spigot" recess?

You'd be missing the backplate to adapt it to what sounds like an A2 spindle?
...

The spindle is A type bolt pattern and a plain face like the kitagawa b206.

The chucks have a 5mm deep recess which you can fit a A2-5 adapter. my manual shows the chucks bolting directly to the spindle without adapters.

The recess should match the spindle face but it was too small on the old version I picked up and I now have an adapter with square sholders for the 140mm plain face spindle and 135mm plain face for the chuck.

I'm trying to avoid buying another chuck.

gregormarwick · Feb 18, 2018

landslide said:
A type bolt paterns and plain backs are std for the kitagawa range. my manual shows all chucks driectly mounting without a taper.

The spindle is A type bolt pattern and a plain face like the kitagawa b206.

The chucks have a 5mm deep recess which you can fit a A2-5 adapter. my manual shows the chucks bolting directly to the spindle without adapters.

The recess should match the spindle face but it was too small on the old version I picked up and I now have an adapter with square sholders for the 140mm plain face spindle and 135mm plain face for the chuck.

I'm trying to avoid buying another chuck.

Most power chucks, including Kitagawa, can be purchased with integral taper mount or plain back for an adapter plate. You have one of each right now, no mystery.

landslide · Feb 18, 2018

so why does the manual have them fitted directly to the chuck without an adapter? why did the chuck that is on it have a plain back being bolted directly to the spindle face without a taper?

cnctoolcat · Feb 18, 2018

Every modern Kitagawa chuck I've seen requires an adapter plate to be bolted to the back of it...then the chuck/adapter plate assembly get bolted to the machine spindle.

Virtually all CNC lathes have the "A" type spindle nose. Some European machines have different spindle-nose designs (usually just a short straight diameter), but still require the correct adapter plate to properly mount a Kitagawa (or clone) power chuck.

Kaszub · Feb 18, 2018

landslide said:
so why does the manual have them fitted directly to the chuck without an adapter? why did the chuck that is on it have a plain back being bolted directly to the spindle face without a taper?

Care to take some pics? Every chuck needs an adapter unless it is a ching-chong abortion of a machine.....they tend to do things in strange ways.

Danny VanVoorn · Feb 18, 2018

All the talk about the manual for chucks; What does the manual for the lathe say? I'm willing to gamble that there is a section that gives implicit directions for mounting chucks with jaws, chucks for collets and face plates too boot if for no other reason that to cover any liabilities that might arise. Machinery hand book has a section that explains design and dimensions for most any type of machine spindle. I know the short taper on a D1-3, 4, 5, etc. is only about 5 mm high and it's sufficient for keeping the work holder aligned so may be that is what you're looking at?
I know one thing for sure, if that chuck isn't mounted properly there is a risk of injury or worse!
Dan

landslide · Feb 18, 2018

here are the LATHE manual pages. there was another chuck but the same thing. Ill take pics of the chuck that was on it but is is just a flat back with 3 M10 bolts to hold it on.

I'd make a taper adapter up if there was a drive pin (spigot?) but there is not much benifit when if there is no dowel to stop twisting or i'm just relying on bolts anyway. when you consider this any taper atachement on the chuck is relying on the bolts to stop twisting anyway. whats the difference?

Edster · Feb 18, 2018

My Okuma Captain has a 140mm flat nose spindle on the sub spindle. There is no taper. You bolt the chuck on, indicate the body, and tighten the bolts. On one of the pages of his manual I saw okuma so it's probably the same spindle face.

gregormarwick · Feb 18, 2018

Edster said:
My Okuma Captain has a 140mm flat nose spindle on the sub spindle. There is no taper. You bolt the chuck on, indicate the body, and tighten the bolts. On one of the pages of his manual I saw okuma so it's probably the same spindle face.

Yeah, flat nose isn't all that uncommon, I had a gildemeister with the same. Chuck/collet chuck has a shallow recess that fits over the spindle nose.

Doesn't change anything for OP - either buy/make an adapter plate or a chuck that fits.

landslide · Feb 18, 2018

Finaly some sanity. It is a JIS A2-6 (140 flat) spindle.

I have made an adapter.

My origional question is loose fitiing m10 bolts in 12mm holes going to work? or should i make some bolts that are a tighter fit?

landslide · Feb 18, 2018

thermite said:
Frustrating that the only photos seen so far are the manual pages.

WE don't need that. We need photos of the spindle nose. We need to see the back side of EACH of those two chucks - old and new.

Until then, he's confusing us almost as much as he is confusing himself!

A photo tells you nothing but looks. A technical drawing has all dimensions and tolerances. It is exactly what i have. The b206 diagram is exactly what the back of the chuck look like. A flat face and toleranced sholder. Visualizing and interpreting working drawings should be second nature.

How is that confusing?

machtool · Feb 19, 2018

landslide said:
My original question is loose fitiing m10 bolts in 12mm holes going to work? or should i make some bolts that are a tighter fit?

Are the counterbores deep enough to make centering washers under the heads of the M10 S.H.C.S? I'd expect you wont have much additional depth in the counterbore.

I'd note your 140mm male dimension on the spindle is a h5 tolerance..0 to -0,018mm

Regards Phil.

machtool · Feb 19, 2018

thermite said:
M10 & 12 mm? Any chance they called for stock metric shoulder bolts?

Not in the 35 years I've had them in bits, never ever seen a shoulder bolt holding a chuck on. Surely the shoulder bolt locks up on the "shoulder". That would leave the chuck loose surely?

A 1mm wall thickness sleeve over a standard M10 S.H.C.S might be an option. DIN 2391 Drawn over mandrel hydraulic tube would be 10 x 12.

I'd be more concerned about how much grip the head has to retain torsional stiffness of the fastener. T'was why I was inquiring of options to secure the head. The part that makes a bolt go "tight".Before you polluted this thread. Give it up, 10 minutes ago you weren't ever aware of a parallel journal chuck interface.

This bloke has an Okuma he needs to get running, with the chuck he has bought, and made a back plate for. Is there any reason you must sabotage that?

The "Practical Machinist's" between us. (Not you), might just nut this out.

(Saddened) Phil. (Yet another thread you have fucked up)

machtool · Feb 19, 2018

thermite said:
Or is there a "problem" only because the 'new' chuck wasn't intended for this spindle type at all, but a backplate, rather

Please see post # 12. He has all ready made a back plate. Issue is to use the existing 7/16 holes.23/32 counterbore, (18.25)mm or the M10 variate. 17.5 mm dia.

Wouldn't the fact remain. Only a few hours ago, you weren't even aware of a parallel shanked journal spindle / chuck interface? Like this bloke has?

landslide · Feb 19, 2018

machtool said:
Are the counterbores deep enough to make centering washers under the heads of the M10 S.H.C.S? I'd expect you wont have much additional depth in the counterbore.

I'd note your 140mm male dimension on the spindle is a h5 tolerance..0 to -0,018mm

Regards Phil.

Thanks phil.
looks like the sleeve is a good solution for peace of mind. I'll see if i can get some of the size you mention.
The counter bores are 17mm and I have just over 2.1mm of depth with the m10 bolt so I can do a washer also if needed also.

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